Questions About Racetams: Glutamate Excitotoxicity, Dosage, Long Term Effects And Other Nootropics

Hi guys, I made a similiar post in "general discussions" but i received no answers, so let me try here.


 


What use should i consider for racetams in general. Do I have to cycle them -maybe insert them in my stack during only certain periods: study sessions etc.- or I can take them without cycling, as the normal supplements, without expecting any collateral effect? I've read in the maze of Longecity forum that piracetam could generate a neurotoxic activity in presence of an excess of glutamate, is that true? What kinds of elements/foods should I avoid, expecially when i'm taking piracetam or other racetams?

 


Are there any studies or even opinions regarding how racetams affects I.Q. in positive or negative way either?

 


How about lions mane mushroom extract, should I insert it in my stack with no problems? 


 


I'm sorry for my english (it's not my main language), hope that it's understandable. 

Comments

  • Do you really need to take smart drugs every day?  I would, at the very least, take days off when you do not have "mission critical" stuff to do.  My philosophy is that a good, synergistic racetam blend shows me what is possible.  When I cycle off, my brain finds a way to perform at that level without the drugs.  There is no toxicity in long term use - excess glutamic acid is toxic in and of itself!


  • Maybe keep it simple before diving into Nootropics:


     


    Caffeine Anhydrous and L-Theanine


    For whenever focused energy is desired 


    Dose


    1:2  ratio keep away from sleep times


    Caffeine 100mg


    L-Theanine 200mg


     


    or


     


    Lion's Mane


    A mushroom that increases the production of Nerve Growth Factor.


    NGF is responsible for determining the rate at which new brain cells are produced and a Nobel Prize Winner 


    Take for 6months to gain best results for mental function improvements and with omega-3 fatty acids: EPA and DHA (fish oil).


     


    That`s what maybe you could take EVERYDAY.


    The rest....well as Jason has already said.

  • Thanks for the suggestion, Nickat.  I need to re-order Ciltep (it worked, after my brain got used to it)  and was wondering about a simpler solution.  I could buy the "ingredients" for the stack, but Ciltep has like 4 supplements stacked.


    Mary

  • I actually suggest you do NOT use lion's mane every day. Research is scant, but there is evidence that cycling is best (similar to rhodiola rosea).


     


    On another note, check out this article about the person who won the nobel prize: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/is-this-the-secret-of-eternal-life-1674005.html


  • NickatNickat
    edited March 2014

    Is the reason you recomend not using Lion`s Mane daily because the research is "scant" or is it based on identifying "negative medical findings" that have proved it harmful in prolonged use. No disrespect intended as we see you do sell Nootropics and certainly are in the know. Curious as to your reasoning is all.


    Can see that as a fungi is not BP and accept that.


     


    The post on eye drops was informative. Cool.


     




    I actually suggest you do NOT use lion's mane every day. Research is scant, but there is evidence that cycling is best (similar to rhodiola rosea).


     


    On another note, check out this article about the person who won the nobel prize: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/is-this-the-secret-of-eternal-life-1674005.html



  • edited March 2014

    Thank you for the infos, Brainstorm, Nickat and Jason -actually i didn't know that Rita Levi-Montalcini used NGF eye drop every day; an american that tells to an italian what another italian does... quite ironic i'd say-. 


     


    Since it seems that this thread has more visibility than the other one,  i'm gonna copy-paste some of the questions about nootropic stacks that might be gone unnoticed in the general section of this forum. Jason Hooper has already expressed his viewpoint about some of them, i thank him very much for that and i'm gonna follow his tips for sure, but since this forum is full of nootropics-veterans, i'd like to read their opinions about the matter, and if a debate starts beetwen different point of views, everyone could benefit. 


     




     Regarding nootropics and supplements, I'm thinking to make a stack based on Trubrain dosages in order to make piracetam work well:


    Piracetam 2.4g

    ALCAR 375mg

    CDP-Choline 375mg

    Krill oil 1g (EPA 0,120/DHA 0,55)

    Magnesium 120mg

    L-Theanine 300mg

    Tyrosine 375mg



    Pramiracetam 300 mg occasionally.


     



     


     


     



     Piracetam is my least favorite of the racetams.  You have to take too much of it and it has a really short half-life.  Racetams have a great synergistic effect when combined, but the doses you mention are very low.  700mg of aniracetam and 800mg of oxiracetam could be more noticeable.  The aniracitam will help with your focus and the oxiracetam is stimulatory. You should be more concerned with the conflicting amio acids in your stack.  They carry a much greater risk!


     


    ---


     


    Taking individual amino acids requires a lot of knowledge in biophysics.  Tyrosine is a particularly dangerous because its role in the synthasis of L-DOPA.  L-theanine blocks l-glutimate from binding to the glutimate receptors up-regulating the GABA pathway.




     


     


    So, thanks to Jason's explanation, i came up that taking l-theanine and l-tyrosine together is not a good idea; then i'm curious to know why Trubrain team puts this amino-acids together in his stack... They must probably put tyrosine in the a.m. packet and theanine in the p.m. packet (i've asked this, sending them an e-mail, and they told me to phone call their neurochemist, but since english isn't my main language, and i'm much more accustomed to reading it instead of listening it -expecially for complex arguments like this one- i asked them if it is possible for him to reply in written form, but i received no answer yet.). The questions are: is it safe to take tyrosine and theanine between an interval of eight ours? An amino-acid supplement must be cycled or not?


     


    I received another reply in Longecity forum that i'm gonna quote here:


     




     Piracetam 1.2g or 2.4g or 4.8g or 9.6g 2x a day with 2.4 or 4.8 being the single doses with the strongest research* (with the exception being 9.6 being possibly superior in demonstrating clinical efficacy) I personally use 4.8g 1-3x daily.


    ALCAR 625 mg 2x  day (see examine.com)

    CDP-Choline 625 2x a day (see examine.com)

    Krill oil 1-2g 2x a Day

    Magnesium 120-250 2x a day

    L-Theanine 50 mg or 100 mg 2x a day (or, 200 mg 2x a day with 100-200 mg of caffeine 2x a day) (see examine.com)

    Tyrosine I'd skip entirely check out pubmed the research on this is blah I actually have a half a kilo on my desk I could couldnt justify using

    Aniracetam (50 or 100 mg/kg)/10 if you want possible effects on things like anxiety and mood or (10-50 mg/kg)10 for its nootropic effects 2x daily (I take 625 or 1200 mg 1-3x daily)



    I am not familar enough with pramiracetam to comment however, I have recieved great benefit from its two proposed mechanisms of action as a nitrous oxide synthase inhibitor and a High Uptake Choline Affinitty transporter inhibitor but, I use Lithium Carbonate and Coluracetam for these effects.







    The fact is that i don't know how to split this stack between morning and afternoon.



    What do you think about taking Aniracetam 200mg plus Oxiracetam 180mg instead of Piracetam on daily basis?



    Oxiracetam's real only undebatable benefit over piracetam is that you only need 1/5th of the dose which many be of use to those who struggle complying with swallowing many pills. However, the drug back that is it doesn't have mainstream medical use as a prescription drug (although it is likely just as safe) and there is a extreme amount of research on piracetam. 


     


    ----


     


    I have yet to come across a single research paper suggesting that racetams should be cycled. Actually, if they do work than, it appears it would be from chronic exposure (meaning daily for long periods of time). However, with that being said, some research does show that acute (meaning one single dosage) could be beneficial in some cases like during cornary bypass surgery to help speed up cognitive function recovery (51) (52).


    The following uses of piracetam do not use cycling

    Memory and cognition in healthy subjects (Dimond & Brouwers, 1976) (Wulsher C et al, 1979)

    Dyslexia (Wilsher, 1986)

    Epilepsy and Seizure (Libov et al, 2007)

    Stroke (Gungor et al, 2011)

    hyperactive disorders (acute stroke, type II Diabetes, Raynaud's) (Treatment of Acute Ischemic Stroke With Piracetam)(Evers & Grotemeyer KH, 1999)



    And has been shown in general that Racetams in general have little side effects and low toxicity rates even when taking up to 12 g (of piracetam) for 8 weeks (Gouliaev & Senning, 1994) (Guirges, 1977)(De Reuck & Vleymen, 1999)



    Therefore, I would suggest you take the racetams on a daily basis as having exposure day after day seems to be protocol in the majority of research with positive outcomes. And, many even stating chronic exposure for days being needed before some of the effects even become apparent.



    Lion Mane Mushroom is likely safe as doses of up to 5g/kg are safe in rats. *However this is a mixture of panax ginseng and lions mane.  (Park ID et al., 2008)



    Perhaps the most promising study involving lions mane mushroom was where the amount of nerve growth factor in the hippocampus when given to rats at 5% of their diet increased for a period of seven days to around 1.3 of control. However, one legitimate critism is that it failed to altered NGF in the cortex. ( Mori K et al., 2008)



    Overall, I personally ingest lions mane mushroom because it seems to be very well tolerated and may provide benefit. However, much of the human research is either of a small sample size, not double blind, or doesn't report "jaw dropping" effects. However, the overall tolerability does make it still worth consideration, IMO.




     


    What do you think about his stack suggestion and his thesis about racetams? 


     


    Basing on the infos i gathered until now, my daily stack would be like this:


     


    -during study sessions, so let's dare about six months.


     


    -Between 7:00 a.m. and 8:00 a.m. :


     


    Aniracetam 350mg  + Oxiracetam 400mg


    ALCAR 625mg 


    Krill oil 500mg 


    CDP-Choline 375mg (if needed for headache)


    Tyrosine 375mg (?) or l-theanine 300mg


    Lions Mane 4g (to be cycled?)


    Multivitaminic


    Magnesium citrate 450mg


     


    And bulletproof coffee.


     


    -between 1:00 p.m and 3:00 p.m.


     


    Aniracetam 350mg + Oxiracetam 400mg


    ALCAR 625mg


    Krill oil 500mg 


    CDP-Choline 375mg (if needed for headache)


    l-theanine 300mg or maybe a cup of green tea. 


    Silibinin (after every big meal) 


     


    - before bed 11:00 p.m.


     


    Tryptophan + collagen protein (dosage suggestions?) or one tea spoon of raw honey 


    Magnesium citrate 215mg 


     


    -during brain resting, the others six months.


     


    -between 7:00 a.m. and 8:00 a.m.


     


    ALCAR 625mg (?)


    Krill oil 500mg


    Tyrosine 375mg (?) or l-theanine 300mg


    Krill oil 500mg


    Multivitaminic


    Magnesium citrate 450mg


     


    And bulletproof coffee 


     


    -between 1:00 p.m. and 3:00 p.m.


     


    ALCAR 625mg (?)


    Krill oil 500mg


    l-theanine 300mg or maybe a cup of green tea


    Silibinin (after every big meal)


     


    - before bed 11:00 p.m.


     


    Tryptophan + collagen protein (dosage suggestions?) or one tea spoon of raw honey 


    Magnesium citrate 215mg 


     


     


    What i'm taking right now -and i've to say it seems that i've quite solved the biorythm issue in less then one week-


     


    -between 7:00 a.m. and 8:00 a.m.


     


    Piracetam 1200mg


    Krill oil 500mg 


    Multivitaminic


     


    And bulletproof green tea (coffee from tomorrow). 


     


    Choline Alfoscerate 300mg (if i experience headache, usually after 45 min after breakfast)


     


    -between 1:00 p.m. and 3:00 p.m.


     


    Piracetam 1200mg


    Krill oil 500mg


    Silibinin (after every big meal) 


     


    -before bed 11:00 p.m.


     


    Melatonin 1mg + Agomelatine 25mg (due to a therapy prescripted by a specialized doctor to resyncronize cicardian rythm)


     


     


     


     


     


     


  • Hi guys, I'm sorry  to be so frustrating, but I'd like to be sure of the safeness and the effectivity of these stacks, so every opinion and/or adjustement is encouraged and really appreciated. 


  • I know absolutely nothing about the lion's mane, but the remainder of the stack is fairly conservative.  The riskiest think that you are taking is the aminos, so keep an eye on that.


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