What Is The Best Ces Device Out There?

I'm looking to get a CES device and really want to understand what is the best one.



I have looked at the Fisher Wallace one and the Alpha Stim.



Can anyone recomend any devices?
«134

Comments

  • I am also interested in this, Having lurked the forums a while I had come to the conclusion that dave used a neurotrek one that had some variable controls. While the CES ultra seemed "fixed". Upon further investigation the Neurotrek 3 supposedly was being sold without being produced. There are alternatives elixa suggested this in its stead http://www.elixa.com/CES/OasisPro.htm, I wanted to some feedback from anyone who had a CES device on what they thought between say a CES ultra or something like that Oasis, or even one with light and sound features.



    thanks in advance
  • AndreasAndreas
    edited October 2012
    This questions interests me too. Can this thread or a new one list the specific functionality and features one would want in such a device?

    Should the device include:
    • Transcranial DC Therapy (tDCS) functionality?
    • Variable voltage?
    • Preset training programs?
    • Different types of electrodes?
    • Do some types of electrodes work better than others?
    • Computer connectivity?
    • Display?
    • Some history of its use (output)?
    • Other stuff?


    Some other questions:
    • Can one use an EEG device to monitor the affects of a CES device wile you use it?
    • Does a combination EEG/CES device exist?
    • Can this community vet plans to build a CES device if a suitable one doesn't exist commercially?
  • The answer to the first few questions basically boils down to the intended use. I know that the CES ultra that costs around 250 (on elixa when you go to buy) but it appears to just be fixed in its use, while the more "premium" devices can be altered and changed (I imagine to help produce different results than perhaps just helping sleep). I believe the electrodes is mainly a preference/comfort thing, most of the other features again probably just come down to its intended application. As for the history I believe Dave talks about its development for Russian cosmonauts.



    I'm not sure about the latter 3 questions, but I'm sure you could find people with more expertise on the subject than I who could point you in the right direction of provide more in-depth answers.
  • I am considering just biting the bullet and purchasing the oasis just so I can trial its effects and write an in-depth assessment (although i'm not sure how eloquent it would be). My glance around the place hadn't produced much in the way of "In-depth" reviews but then again I didn't really look that hard either.
  • Ok I went ahead and got the Oasis Pro.



    As its my first and only CES device I cant compare it to others, but from what I understand, this device does the main frequencies thats found on other devices such as the CES ultra.



    I believe the popular frequency for relaxing and sleep is 100 hz. The Oasis Pro does that frequency.



    It also goes all the way down to Delta too.



    I read a post by Dave that said he set his device to delta to get an increase in quality of sleep. Then when he woke he set it to Gamma frequency to get him focussed.



    Unfortunetly the Oasis Pro doesnt do the Gamma frequenccy. It gets as high as Beta.



    I emailed Mindalive and they told me that the can patch the device with a firmware that doubles all the set frequencies. So youcould get Gamma with a patched version. However once the device is patched you cant reverse it.



    Im considering buying a second Oasis Pro thats been patched just to get the higher frequencies.



    Also the Oasis Pro says that the frequency that it produces is random. So when you set it to say the Delta frequency, which is 1.5 hz, the device produces waves from 1.5-3 hz.. They say on their website that this is better to stop your brain getting adapted (unsure if thats the correct wording they used)



    Anyway, I am happy with my 1st CES device and have been using it every night and also in the morning. I deffinetly do feel it working.



    Ive also emailed http://www.wellnesstools.com/ces.php about the availability of NeuroTrek Digital Pro 3 (which is a fully programmable one). However I have heard no reply.
  • FYI here is the link to the page that talks about randomization and other interesting stuff http://www.mindalive.com/1_0/techtalkceswaveforms.htm
  • Stu, I believe there is software for self programming the oasis, It might be worth looking into. Have you noticed discernible affects? Could you write a log, for a week etc and post it? It would be a really valuable tool for people to evaluate whether the money is warranted.
  • AndreasAndreas
    edited November 2012
    Some questions and some information pulled from a couple of sites as well as bulletproofexec.com.

    It appears that the software for self programming the Oasis Pro allows one to create custom sequences of different lengths of different frequencies (say Beta 1 for 10 minutes followed by Alpha for 20 minutes). It does not allow one to enable the device to generate gamma frequencies.

    From the user manual the Oasis Pro can generate the following frequencies:
    • Micro-current Electrical Therapy: 0.1-2.5 Hz, short pulses
    • Sub-Delta: 0.1-2.5 Hz, 50% duty cycle pulses
    • Delta: 2.6 - 5 Hz
    • Theta: 5.1 - 7.5 Hz
    • Alpha: 7.6-12 Hz
    • Beta 1: 12.1-16 Hz
    • Beta 2: 16.2-25.4 Hz
    • 100 Hz


    Would the firmware modification double all of these frequencies ( 100 Hz -> 200 Hz)?

    Also, I wonder why one couldn't reverse the firmware modification. Maybe they only have it set up to do it at the factory?

    What frequency range does the literature on this associate with gamma waves?

    I copied the following from http://www.neurotrekdigitalpro.com/

    (with full appreciation that neurotreck appears ethically challenged these days)

    Brain Frequency Benefits!

    GAMMA
    • Super Tuned Eye-Hand Coordination
    • “Lightning Fast” Thinking
    • Laser-Targeted Concentration
    • High Speed & Crash-Free Energy


    BETA
    • Logical Thinking & Problem Solving
    • Strong Motivator to Take Action
    • Natural Anti-Depressant


    • Can Increase IQ & Personal Productivity


    ALPHA
    • Hyper-Accelerated LearningSolving
    • Magnified Powers of Creative Insight
    • Rapid Relaxation & Stress Reliever
    • Ideal for Creative Visualization


    THETA
    • Deep, Soothing Relaxation
    • Empowers Intuition
    • Stimulates “Subconscious” Awareness
    • Ideal for Manifestation Meditations


    DELTA
    • Activates Anti-Aging Hormones
    • Rejuvenates, Replenishes, & Heals
    • Ideal for Transcendental Meditation
    • Deeper-Than-Conscious Relaxation


    Interesting claims, but they bring me to some questions from a brain hacking perspective.

    How does this actually work? I get that running a current across one's brain at a specific frequency seems to get the brain to resonate or align with the current's frequency, but why does a brain do this? How does the biology / chemistry / physics of this do that? Just looking for an explanation.

    Given the claims from the neurotreck site (statements like these or close to them get echoed across other discussions of CES) what specifically can one expect from using a CES device?

    I've gathered some quotes on the subject and use of CES of Dave's from the blog:

    "If I will get less than 4 hours of sleep, I use my CES machine to run a current across my brain at between .5 and 1.5hz, the range of physical regenerative sleep. I’ve had nights of 2.5 hours of sleep at 1.5hz which resulted in me waking fully alert and ready to go."


    These seems to fall into the Oasis Pro's "Delta" range but much narrower.

    "Since I already have a huge collection of brain hacking and biohacking toys, I broke out a programmable cerebro-electrical stimulator, also known as a Russian Sleep Machine, or “electrosleep” device. I set it to run a current across my brain (a carefully shaped, controlled microcurrent) that put my brain into a deep 1.5hz delta state for a half hour as I slept. I forced myself to get more deep sleep than I’d otherwise have had. CES devices have been around since 1949, when Russians invented them.

    The results? Even though I had 2.5 hours of total sleep (and 5 the night before), I woke up full of energy and feeling great, as if I’d slept an un-hacked 7+ hours. After waking up, I did another 15 minutes of 40hz Gamma state and experienced one of the most productive days I’ve had in weeks."


    From one of Dave's comments on the same link describing his use of his CES device:
    "...I used mine for an hour last night at 4hz, low theta as I went to sleep. Most of the time I focus on physically regenerative deeper levels, like .5-1.5hz."


    I don't have the transcript in front of me but I seem to remember him talking to Joe Rogan about using the device to produce gamma waves as well.

    So to summarize, it seems like Dave uses ranges like:

    0.5-1.5 Hz "delta"

    4.0 Hz, "low theta"

    and maybe "gamma", but I don't know the "gamma" frequency.



    UPDATE: rereading Dave's quote just above, it looks like gamma gets generated by 40 Hz, so this makes sense that doubling frequencies of the Oasis Pro would get you in this range.
  • Hi Andreas, yeah in my post about I wrote about what waves dave uses. Delta and then Gamma. The Oasis Pro frequencies are ranges, so I can duplicate dave's experiment.



    Yes to change the firmware it has to be done at the factory and costs each time.



    The program software doesnt change the frequencys as mentioned above.



    bojak, I would love to write a week long log, however I just cannot commit the time. I will try and post any updates I have with the device which may help you.



    But i have to say that Mindalive answer all my questions I email to them. And the device itself seems solid built and does everything I expected from it.



    My friend as the CES Ultra and is now going to buy the Oasis Pro after seeing mine and the different settings
  • Quick update.



    I've been setting the Oasis Pro to the delta frequency for 45 minutes before I sleep.



    I've noticed that in the mornings I feel groggy and it takes about 1 hour to feel really awake. Its like my head feels heavy, so to speak.



    Anyway a the other night I kept everything the same (food and supplement wise) but used the 100hz setting. The 100 hz frequency is what the CES Ultra does and is one of the frequency's thats been approved by the FDA.



    I definitely 'feel' the 100hz more then the delta waves. It feels like my mind is some how slowing down. Its a nice feeling once you get used to it. So I did it for 45 minutes as I normally do.



    I woke up the next morning with just under 5 hours sleep. When I woke up I felt immediately awake. I literally just opened my eyes and felt awake. Very surprising.



    I will try the 100hz frequency again tonight. I will also attempt to use my Zeo without ripping it off in the middle of the night



    Will try and update tomorrow
  • I wonder if another option exists to get gamma waves out of an Oasis Pro? The factory adjustments within the device that ostensibly double the frequency outputs sounds like a simple amplification circuit of some kind.



    Consider this thought experiment:



    To generate gamma waves at approximately 40 Hz one only needs to double the device's Beta 2 output (and nothing else).



    To get gamma why not use the Oasis Pro as a preamplifier outputting the device's Beta 2 wave to a secondary amplifier that doubles the signal and perhaps does some additional filtering to maintain the right wave shape or filter out any unwanted products of the amplification.



    It seems reasonable that one might construct a small battery powered Beta 2 to gamma amplifier that could clip onto the Oasis Pro or connect by wire.

    All the other controls of the Oasis Pro ought to work as normal.



    You could almost think of this idea as you would a stereo system. A preamplifier takes the signal to a certain point then an amplifier steps it up further. Probably just needs a couple of simple ICs, capacitors, and resistors to make it work.



    A simple amplification add-on device might prove significantly cheaper to build than the purchase price of a modified second Oasis Pro just to do gamma.
  • I love that idea Andreas, but I am far from an electrician so I wouldnt even attempt to create that lol.



    I think I would be scared about making something like that and then connecting it to my head image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
  • @Stu_UK -- Ha! I guess it does have the potential to turn out like a lot of bad movies.



    Seriously, one would probably use a similar amplification chip to what the Oasis Pro device uses itself and one can run the final output through a measuring device and confirm that it does what one wants it to do.



    Maybe the manufacture of the Oasis Pro would comment on the feasibility of the idea. I'll send them an email and report back if I get anything.
  • 'Stu_UK' wrote:


    Anyway, I am happy with my 1st CES device and have been using it every night and also in the morning. I deffinetly do feel it working.






    Hey Stu,



    I'm looking into CES also. Are you quantifying this any way? Do you have a zeo or anything else to track some data on sleep since you are using it mostly to improve sleep as I understand it?



    Thanks.
  • Anybody trying combining a CES session with the emwave yet?
  • 'bojak' wrote:
    Stu, I believe there is software for self programming the oasis, It might be worth looking into. Have you noticed discernible affects? Could you write a log, for a week etc and post it? It would be a really valuable tool for people to evaluate whether the money is warranted.




    That's a good idea, I'll keep a video journal when I get my CES machine. You can try out the Alpha-Stim free for 60 days so I think I'll start with that.
  • 'Benjamin wrote:


    That's a good idea, I'll keep a video journal when I get my CES machine. You can try out the Alpha-Stim free for 60 days so I think I'll start with that.




    Sounds good, post links if it comes to fruition etc
  • AndreasAndreas
    edited November 2012
    I just received a reply to my questions from Dave Siever at Mind Alive, Inc the makers of the Oasis Pro.



    From my email to him:


    "One of the members (of this forum) reported that in discussions with you, you stated that you could make a factory adjustment to the device to accommodate gamma output, but that would essential double the outputs of each setting. If so, I think it would follow that one would also lose:



    Micro-current Electrical Therapy: 0.1-2.5 Hz, short pulses;

    Sub-Delta: 0.1-2.5 Hz, 50% duty cycle pulses; and

    100 Hz would rise to 200 Hz -- (not a useful frequency)"




    Dave's reply:



    "The frequencies change to 0.2 Hz to 50 Hz plus 100 Hz (100 Hz does not change). There is no research to show that CES will produce gamma waves as the entrainment of CES has never been measured. We have Oasis Pro devices already made for this, but I suggest that you also buy a DAVID Session Editor so you can program the session. Just remember that anything you program in, will be x2, except for the 100 Hz."
    [/indent]



    With regard to my idea to use a standard Oasis Pro as a preamp he didn't think this possible.

    I still think one could do it, but it probably would take too much time and effort to nail down a design and implementation.



    So, if one got an Oasis Pro with frequencies doubled you'd only lose some of the range of the Micro-current Electrical Therapy and Sub Delta frequencies. I'll email him again to clarify, maybe one will still get some use of the Micro-current Electrical Therapy range -- not necessarily useful for brain hacking, but it can help with muscle cramps and and spasms (clearly a nice to have feature).



    I plan to order mine with the frequencies doubled. Putting in my order today!



    ALSO, Siever has generously offered a 10% discount on purchases made before Dec 15, 2012 to anyone on the forum. You can reach Mind Alive at:



    (780) 465-6463

    Toll Free 1-800-661-MIND



    Note: I have no association with Dave Siever or his company. Just mention that you participate in this forum.

    Seems like a stand up guy.



    Happy Thanksgiving to everyone in the US.
  • Would the David Session Editor be able to design a session that would alternate between deep and REM sleep (gamma and theta, respectively) and could one customize output levels without the need for factory firmware changes?
  • @JasonHooper -- As I understand it, you describe exactly the kind of things the session editor can do.
  • I placed my order today with Mind Alive for the following:
    • Oasis Pro CES device with the firmware modification to double the frequencies;
    • Session editor;
    • tDCS functionality (we do research at my company so apparently I can qualify);
    • MET; and
    • some extra electrodes


    I should receive it sometime next week.



    I wonder if it would make sense to plan/share some programs or sessions with which forum members have had interesting results.

    Any thoughts or ideas along these lines appreciated.



    In any case, I'll report on my usage and experience.
  • I am reasonably considering ordering one with the same configuration as yours. I would be happy to share my session data with the forum. I need some guidance as to how to quantify the results. I cannot be sure that a devise like a Zeo would pickup the external electrical source rather than that of the brain. I suppose that we could create breaks in the session to see if the brain continues to perform to the entertained state. Any advise would be appreciated.
  • 'Andreas' wrote:


    I placed my order today with Mind Alive for the following:
    • Oasis Pro CES device with the firmware modification to double the frequencies;
    • Session editor;
    • tDCS functionality (we do research at my company so apparently I can qualify);
    • MET; and
    • some extra electrodes


    I should receive it sometime next week.



    I wonder if it would make sense to plan/share some programs or sessions with which forum members have had interesting results.

    Any thoughts or ideas along these lines appreciated.



    In any case, I'll report on my usage and experience.




    Hi,



    I am interested in how you convince him to give you the tDCS session since the session is only said to be released for certified clinicians. I would really like to know that. It seems to me that mind alive has one of the cheapest device that supported tDCS so I am really interested in it.
  • Does anyone know if the MET functionality of the Oasis Pro is similar to the MarcPro device used for sports recovery?



    If the MET program matched the MarcPro (which has FDA clearance and a patent) then that would definitely help justify the cost of the unit. The MarcoPro seems to use currents between 1-2Hz and uses a "proprietary dynamic decaying waveform. Muscle fibers are contracted, but rather than being held, are slowly released over a period of time in a natural decaying fashion. This allows muscle fibers to properly relax, resulting in an extremely comfortable contraction and one that is ideally suited to moving fluid in and out of the area without fatigue." Perhaps the session builder could be use to mimic this?
  • @rayzn -- I run a research company. Note I didn't tell anyone, what kind of research and no one asked.



    @JustinW -- From Mind Alive's website:


    "About Microcurrent Electro Therapy (MET)



    Although electro-medicine has been in existence for well over a thousand years, developments in electronics and new research has seen this technology grow at a terrific rate in recent years. Microcurrent Electro Therapy (MET) is very different than traditional TENS because MET produces its benefits in part on a cellular level. MET has longer lasting effects than TENS.



    The concept of MET is based, in part, on Arndt’s Law, which states that weak stimuli excite physiological activity, whereas medium-strength stimuli will encourage it and strong stimuli will suppress it.



    It is believed that MET delivered at around 500 micro-amps in the 0.5 to 3 Hz range may be most effective for treating pain."




    Given the Oasis Pro's range for MET use, it may well do much of what the MacroPro does. I suggest contact Mind Alive directly and asking them about their unit relative to the MacroPro.
  • My Oasis Pro arrived this afternoon. Tomorrow should get interesting....
  • @Andreas - I sent MindAlive a few questions. I am inclined to avoid the frequency doubling as I'm very interested in the MET functionality and I think doubling it would be trouble.



    Since I'm not doubling I might try out the Delight Pro which seems to do everything the Oasis Pro does if you're not getting tDCS or going for the doubled frequenciues. can try out the AV experience and HRV for just a little bit more $.
  • 'Andreas' wrote:


    My Oasis Pro arrived this afternoon. Tomorrow should get interesting....




    Are you starting off with CES or tDCS? Do you have a particular protocol in mind? I am very excited to see how it goes!
  • Giving lots of thought to setting up a plan and protocol. I do have a minor problem. The doubled frequency version requires that one use the Session Editor software to configure sets of sessions for the doubled frequencies. The software only runs on Windows. I only run on Mac. So, I need to locate a Windows machine I can use to configure CES sessions.



    The device has tDCS already configured ready to go, so I'll likely start with that. This raises another set of questions, in particular what areas of the head to the electrodes for what specific purposes?



    Also, what about the right-brain/left-brain thing. Do left handed people (presumably right-brained) need to reverse Broca areas that they would use for tDCS?



    I just want to clear up a few questions like this before running a current through my skull.
«134
Sign In or Register to comment.