What Is The Best Ces Device Out There?

24

Comments

  • I work for a school district that cycles through computers frequently. I will inquire about the possibility of obtaining one of the older machines to send to you. It will not be the latest and greatest technology, but it should be powerful enough to run the Session Editor software.
  • AndreasAndreas ✭✭
    edited December 2012
    @JasonHopper -- Many thanks for the thought. Happy to arrange shipping if you do find something.



    So, I did manage to get temporary access to a friend's Windows computer for a bit and I set up some basic gamma, theta, and 100Hz sessions of 20 min, 45 min, and 3 hr lengths. It does get a bit confusing because one needs to keep the frequencies straight as the device will generate double what the session editor says, except for the Sub Delta, MET, and 100Hz sessions. One also needs to save the the sessions to specific locations on the device. Not difficult, just not particularly user friendly. All in all the session editor could use a software refresh with an emphasis on clarity and user friendliness.



    As I write this I have the device attached and running my 1st 20 minute gamma session! At bit of tingling in the ear lobes, listening to Pavarotti and Bach on iTunes.



    I ran a HeartMath session before starting, just to level everything off before I started.



    Now, back to sessions. The Oasis Pro session software saves session data as .wav files and uploads them to the device via an audio patch cord just like what headphones use.



    The software comes with a number of default session files, but of course most of them won't work as expected with a doubled frequency device.



    The workaround ....
    • open a default session;
    • tune it to your needs (you can adjust length and frequencies of the "modules" that make up a session) ;
    • save_as to a name that better describes what it will actually do on your doubled frequency device;
    • assign the saved session to a specific location on the device (this last will become clear when you get the device).


    This raises an interesting possibility. As the .wav files only take up 1 to 2 kbytes, we could create a library of sessions and make them available for anyone to download from the internet, open in a session editor, and upload to the Oasis Pro.



    This could save a lot of people a lot of time and confusion. If anyone has a site or can suggest a place to upload the session files, I'll happily contribute as I develop my set of sessions.



    OK, real time reporting.



    20 minutes pass and my session has ended. It has me just a little bit woozey. Not unpleasant, almost a tipsy feeling. The device clearly does something.



    A few minutes more pass and the woozey/tipsy feeling seems to have continued to increase. Not unlike when one takes a bit too much melatonin or gets a little bit of motion sickness. I haven't tried walking around yet, that might prove an interesting challenge.



    Now, completely subjectively, as my iTunes playlist cycles through some operatic arias, I hear the music, how can I describe this, more thoroughly - more completely than I typically do, almost as if my brain has tuned in more clearly to the music. Subtle. Yes, but somehow there.



    Signing off for now. Meeting a fellow bio/brain/psyche hacker for an early dinner. I'll report more as I can.



    Getting interesting...
  • @Andreas So does the doubled frequency device still allow a frequency as low as 1.5 hz or the entire subdelta range? In other words, what is the lowest frequency possible with your current device?
  • A posted info on this earlier, but to refresh it:



    I received the following in an email from Mind Alive's Dave Siever,


    "The frequencies change to 0.2 Hz to 50 Hz plus 100 Hz (100 Hz does not change). There is no research to show that CES will produce gamma waves as the entrainment of CES has never been measured. We have Oasis Pro devices already made for this, but I suggest that you also buy a DAVID Session Editor so you can program the session. Just remember that anything you program in, will be x2, except for the 100 Hz."




    Curiously, the sub-Delta setting appears intact, perhaps because it utilizes a different waveform (see the Mind Alive website)



    Oh, an hour or so has passed, still a bit woozey from the session but it seems to have started to pass.
  • @Andreas: Great post! Love your taste in music! I recommend starting a DropBox for file sharing. I am still trying to convince my wife to allow me to purchase one of these. I keep telling her that I will do some extra consulting this month to pay for it. "Do the consulting first!" she says!
  • Woozeyness passed completely after a couple of hours, but it has me wondering again about the left-brain/right-brain question. I may try repeating the session but reversing the anode and cathode.



    If anyone has any facts or references on the left/right brain question, I'd appreciate any guidance.
  • As far as I understood the right-brain/left-brain anode and cathode placement is only important for tDCS. I didn't think the specific location of the CES electrode placement made much difference. Broca's area is just on the left side of your brain and if you are trying to stimulate that to facilitate learning, you need to use tDCS. CES is for whole brain entrainment.
  • 'Andreas' wrote:


    Woozeyness passed completely after a couple of hours, but it has me wondering again about the left-brain/right-brain question. I may try repeating the session but reversing the anode and cathode.



    If anyone has any facts or references on the left/right brain question, I'd appreciate any guidance.




    I have no experience with any of this; however, I recently saw a presentation with Dave Siever who recommends alternating anode and cathode placement in after each session.
  • @zieman -- Thanks. If you come across any specific references, I'd appreciate it. One does pause a bit before playing with one's brain.

    I ordered the tDCS functionality with the device to use it to stimulate learning. I plan to see how it affects n-back training and perhaps some IQ tests.



    @JasonHooper -- Interesting, I've seen a number of Dave Siebert's presentations and even spoke with him briefly. I don't remember him mentioning alternating the anode and cathode placement. I even brought up the left/right brain question, but he may have just assumed my questions related to tDCS. If you recall where I could see the presentation, let me know.



    Back to the session software questions. If I can get some basic information out of Mind Alive about how they structure the data for sessions, I think I could create the session files far more directly using Mathematica. Mathematica, a symbolic and general purpose computing platform has the ability to play or make .wav files from any set of data. One could even use it to play the output of an EEG device. Just and early Sunday morning idea but it could make a lot of things possible.
  • It is here:



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=h1Y3cpB26IY



    He was speaking about stimulating the pre-frontal alternation of DC stimulation at about the 16:45 mark. Since you are dealing with entrainment, the same stimulation factors should apply.
  • 'Andreas' wrote:


    "the device will generate double what the session editor says, except for the Sub Delta, MET, and 100Hz sessions"

    "Curiously, the sub-Delta setting appears intact, perhaps because it utilizes a different waveform (see the Mind Alive website)"




    So are the MET settings intact or doubled?
  • @JasonHooper -- Thx.



    @JustinW -- I haven't measured it, but Mind Alive said the MET settings remain intact.
  • 'rayzh' wrote:


    Hi,



    I am interested in how you convince him to give you the tDCS session since the session is only said to be released for certified clinicians. I would really like to know that. It seems to me that mind alive has one of the cheapest device that supported tDCS so I am really interested in it.




    When I was talking to one of the re-sellers, they said I could just sign a waiver for the tDCS - So maybe there is some kind of legal loop hole or alike
  • Does the session editor allow gamma frequencies on an unpatched device? I know the presets would not have a gamma option, but can you make custom gamma slots on a device that has not been patched? I was looking to get the DAVID delight pro which is unlikely to be patched.
  • @zieman93 -- No, the session editor can not generate gamma on an unaltered device. If you want the DAVID delight pro, ask if they can modify it for gamma. It very likely uses the same chips as the Oasis Pro.
  • Good video on Broca Areas for tDCS:


    Electrode Positioning and Montage in Transcranial Direct Current Stimulation

  • I ordered an unmodded Delight Pro with the MET kit to play around with.
  • edited December 2012
    Hi ive found 2 devices which I dont think ive seen in this discussion that are tdcs ces machines capable of reaching gamma or having fully adjustable controls. Im waiting for a price on the DC-Stimulator plus but the cesta seems to have all the right modes and half the price of neurotek even if you can control the freq of the cesta it still does 100hz considered to be in the gamma range? tell me your thoughts. I think the CESta looks a really promising alternative. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />





    DC-STIMULATOR plus

    http://www.rogue-res...modulation/1066



    DC-STIMULATOR PLUS features:
    • 1 channel, unipolar (DC) and bipolar (AC) stimulation
    • Adjustable range of current ±4,500 µ, maximum adjustable current strength ±3,000 µ (peak-to-peak)*
    • Frequencies adjustable up to 250 Hz, phase freely adjustable
    • 4 standard modes - single (continuous stimulation) - pulse (cyclical stimulation activation/deactivation) - sinus (sinus wave) - noise (normally distributed)
    • customer-specific programs possible (optional)
    • "Study mode" for blind processing of genuine and 'pseudo' stimulation (optional)
    • External trigger input and output (optional)


    CESta

    http://www.mindalive.com/2_2.htm



    B1 Sub Delta Use for Micro-TENS to reduce pain and relax tense muscles. 45 min 0.5-3Hz

    B2 Theta Use to improve sleep for those who have insomnia due to a “racing” mind.45 min 6-8Hz

    B3 Alpha Use for calming anxiety 45 min 9-11Hz

    B4 SMR Use to reduce anxiety and provide relaxed attention. 45 min 12-15Hz

    B5 Beta Use to reduce anxiety while maintain a clear mind 45 min 18-22Hz

    B6 100Hz Use for reducing anxiety (this is gamma range as citied as being between 25-100hz in wikipedia?)
  • AndreasAndreas ✭✭
    edited December 2012
    @Dr_Pepper -- Sweet spot for gamma around 40 Hz where as 100 Hz put lots of people to sleep. Not a bad thing, but not, as I understand it prime gamma. The DC-STIMULATOR plus looks interesting. CESta comes from the same company as the Oasis Pro that I got and uses the same basic technology.
  • edited December 2012
    Found out that the The DC-STIMULATOR plus is only for instituitions. damnn



    On a differenent note:

    Its commonly discussed that many other DC current devices can be used as a CES machine. The following TENS device looks like a good example.

    Claims to have fully adjustable hz 0.5-150Hz

    Would there be any problems to using this device on your cranium?





    Model No. :

    LG-TECELITE



    Regular price:

    $599.99



    Your Price:

    $119.99

    lg-tecelite-1.jpg



    http://www.lgmedsupp...elteunandm.html



    LG-TEC Elite Specifications:

    Wave Form Biphase square pulse**

    Pulse Rate Adjustable, from 0.5-150Hz

    Pulse Width(H) 50-300 Microseconds

    Output Voltage(V) 0 to 50 V (Load : 1000 ohm)

    Output Intensity Adjustable, 0-105 mA

    Modes 4 TENS: Burst, Constant, Modulation, Modulation1. 3 EMS: Synchronous, Asynchronous, Delay

    Lead Wires 45 Inch Lead Wires Included

    Electrodes (1) Foil bag 1.5" x 1.5" Electrodes (4/bag)
  • The major problem that I see is that it runs on AC current. Does it have battery power too?
  • edited December 2012
    @Jason, dude there is link to page under the picture. takes a 9V battery image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />



    Was hoping for someone who know can tell me if you can use a TENS device as a CES device.



    I see alot of the settings are controllable, but wonder if the difference is CES is a constant supply of electricity and a TENS sends it in pulses that make you contract. Maybe some devices you can stop the pulsing. Or is this even a factor? Looking forward to someone telling me.thanks.

    Although according to the information below CES also works by sending short pulses of electricity.





    According to a TENS+CES COMBO device CES works very similiar and provided this information:



    TENS SETTING

    Channels 2

    Mode Continuous and Burst

    Pulse Width Variable 40-250

    microseconds

    Pulse

    Repetition Rate

    Variable 1-140 pulses

    per second



    CES SETTING

    Channels 1

    Frequency 100 pulses per second

    Waveform Modified Square wave



    http://trimedsupply....s-tens/ces-faq/

    Pulse Characteristics:

    The CES devices used in most U.S. studies pulse at 0.5 Hz, or 100 Hz, with either a sinusoidal or a modified square wave. Current intensity is set below sensation threshold, usually around 100 microamperes, and the device is on a 20% to 50% duty cycle, with a peak voltage of 11 to 14 volts.



    What is CES?

    CES provides small pulses of electric current across the head for the FDA recognized treatment of anxiety, insomnia and depression. The current is up to but usually no more than 1.5 Milliamperes powered by a nine-volt battery.



    So could this adjustable TENS device be set to the right CES settings and used as such?



    Intensity 3 twin stim<h1> InTENSity Twin Stim III TENS and EMS Combo</h1>

    (runs on 9V Battery,)

    L13701240.jpg

    PDF MANUAL



    Technical specifications for Electrical Muscle Stimulation

    (EMS) mode



    Waveform: Mono-phase square pulse wave

    Pulse amplitude Adjustable, 0~105mA peak at 1000 ohm Load eachchannel, 1mA/Step.

    Pulse Width Adjustable, from 50 to 300μS microseconds,

    Pulse Rate Adjustable, from 1 to 150 Hz, 1 Hz/step

    Contraction time Adjustable, 1~60 seconds , 1 Sec./ step

    Relaxation (OFF) time Adjustable, 0~60 seconds , 1 Sec./ step

    Ramp time Adjustable, 1~6 seconds, 1 Sec. / step, The “On” time will increase and decrease in the setting value.

    Synchronous (S) Stimulation of both channels occurs synchronously.
  • Jason HooperJason Hooper ✭✭✭
    edited December 2012
    @Dr_Pepper: Sorry, I should have clicked on the link. My fault.



    From the comment section of Step 4 of the BP diet:
    • Ducksman11





      And would a TENS unit be able to be used as ‘poor mans’ version?
      • Dave Asprey





        Only a poor man with a damaged brain. TENS is way too strong for your brain.

  • Hmmm,I dont fancy the sound of that damaged brain part.



    Damn they similarities are close but I suppose the possibilities of a spike are pretty risky considering what the TENS device can get up to.






    @Dr_Pepper: Sorry, I should have clicked on the link. My fault.



    From the comment section of Step 4 of the BP diet:
    • Ducksman11





      And would a TENS unit be able to be used as ‘poor mans’ version?
      • Dave Asprey





        Only a poor man with a damaged brain. TENS is way too strong for your brain.


  • There are devices called iontophoresis units that are used to treat excessive sweating that some people use successfully for tDCS. You hit the nail on the head with the TENS units. They do not have the quality control to prevent the aforementioned brain damage.
  • AndreasAndreas ✭✭
    edited December 2012
    Just a quick update on one use of the Oasis Pro.

    I wanted CES capability for sleep hacking. At this point in time, I don't necessarily seek to reduce my time sleeping or improve performance on less sleep, but I do want to improve the quality of my sleep.

    My wife has travelled to China on business for the week so I have the bed to myself for experimentation. (My 15 year old daughter finds all of this hilarious).

    So, for the past several nights I've run the following "sleep" protocol:
    • 2 hours before bed: I put on an inexpensive pair of blue light blocking glasses (this starts me gently yawning after about 30 minutes);
    • Just before bed: Magnesium, MCT oil, and a couple of teaspoons of raw honey;
    • In bed:
      • 20 minute SubDelta session &amp;
      • 1 hour pzizz session.



    At some point in the night I wake momentarily and take off the electrodes.

    I don't have a Zeo (yet), so I don't have hard data, but this protocol seems to have given me some great nights of sleep.

    A question -- Does anyone have thoughts on whether I ought to continue this kind of reporting in this discussion thread or should I breakout something like the above a post it in a sleep hacking thread?

    Thanks...
  • Andreas,



    I am having more trouble than I thought getting you that PC. There is a lot more red tape that I thought, but I am still working on it. Are you doing any sort of gamma on wake? Also, have you tried programming a session to alternate between SubDelta and Theta to incorporate REM during sleep?
  • Glenn GrantGlenn Grant Hack. Dev. Transcend.
    Heya. I've been watching this thread for a while with interest, and finally about to start saving up to buy my first CES device. I would love to be able to do TCDS with it if possible, but if not then oh well.



    Am I right in thinking that my best bet, 'generally available' device would be the http://www.elixa.com/CES/OasisPro.htm ?

    Also, do you guys see any real additional benefit (~$150ish worth) in the light/sounds parts on the http://www.elixa.com/mental/delight.htm



    Sorry if it's already been said. Have read the thread, but admittedly it was a while ago..



    Thanks in advance!
  • I went with the doubled frequency Oasis Pro with MET & TCDS capability. With the doubled frequency you have to keep track of your settings diligently. I haven't researched the light and sound stuff.
  • Glenn GrantGlenn Grant Hack. Dev. Transcend.
    edited February 2013

    I wonder if it would make sense to plan/share some programs or sessions with which forum members have had interesting results.

    Any thoughts or ideas along these lines appreciated.


     


    The software comes with a number of default session files, but of course most of them won't work as expected with a doubled frequency device.


    ...


    This raises an interesting possibility. As the .wav files only take up 1 to 2 kbytes, we could create a library of sessions and make them available for anyone to download from the internet, open in a session editor, and upload to the Oasis Pro.


    This could save a lot of people a lot of time and confusion. If anyone has a site or can suggest a place to upload the session files, I'll happily contribute as I develop my set of sessions.


     


    I would be very interested in knowing/seeing what sessions you have come up with and how effective you are finding them.

     

     


    A posted info on this earlier, but to refresh it:


    I received the following in an email from Mind Alive's Dave Siever,

     


    "The frequencies change to 0.2 Hz to 50 Hz plus 100 Hz (100 Hz does not change). There is no research to show that CES will produce gamma waves as the entrainment of CES has never been measured. We have Oasis Pro devices already made for this, but I suggest that you also buy a DAVID Session Editor so you can program the session. Just remember that anything you program in, will be x2, except for the 100 Hz."


    Curiously, the sub-Delta setting appears intact, perhaps because it utilizes a different waveform (see the Mind Alive website)

     


    So does the sub-delta not changing mean you can create from 0.1-50hz? If not, is all you 'lose' from the doubling the ability to access 0.1hz? What are the increments you can adjust it in? Can you set it to anything in that effective range?

     


    I went with the doubled frequency Oasis Pro with MET & TCDS capability. With the doubled frequency you have to keep track of your settings diligently. I haven't researched the light and sound stuff.


     


    Thinking I won't bother with the light/sound stuff. Very much leaning towards the doubled frequency one. How are you finding it in general? Would you recommend it?


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