What's The Worst You've Seen?

24

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  • SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭


    Actually, your dad's job is done...that's why he shouldn't spank you. The phase where spanking is useful in my mind is a narrow one where the brain is exploring the little one's world responding and logging based on pain/pleasure/curiosity.


    Are your kids crippled, Chouka? Mine can climb. They don't in the kitchen...anymore because we altered their behavior. Lazy parenting? You're making clueless, baseless accusations. I work my ass off as a parent. My wife works even harder. Not a single day in day care. And our 1st grader is reading at an 4th grade level, doing fractions, division, multiplication, etc. Favorite subject? Science. I teach her everything I know. She's into cars. The 4 year old? Going to kindergarten next year because he passed his entrance exam with flying colors. Neither one of them hit, bite, kick, or in any other way physically assault other kids. Not ONE disciplinary comment EVER from any of their teachers in their combined 6 years of pre-school, kindergarten and 1st grade (between the two of them). Nothing but glowing reviews from every teacher too, weird.


     


    If the only thing my parents taught me by spanking me that it gets kids to listen and change their behavior then I thank them. Why don't you pass those studies on for me to review so I can make sure no poor kiddies have their lives scarred by being yelled at or spanked. I don't ascribe to soft, new-age discipline...I see enough of that not working EVERY day while out and about and at work.


     


    Maybe you're right that I'm a shitty parent, but the evidence suggests otherwise. Maybe you were hit too frequently for un-realistic reasons...my house is safe as hell, dude...pot handles turned in, cutting boards/knives pushed back. Our kids weren't even allowed to put dishes in the dishwasher. They're learning respect. Albeit a different brand than yours, and maybe yours is better but we won't know until yours end up working for mine or mine for yours...or not at all...or incarceration as you'd probably expect of mine. I almost wondered if you had kids at all given your absolutist, pious stance...go figure...I've been wrong a lot in life no reason to think I am now. But you're being awfully judgmental of my kids without ever meeting them...maybe my kids will earn favor from you because they were disadvantaged victims of childhood abuse. Oh, and my kids aren't on meds...(yet) and neither am I...I survived spanking and being an alterboy without therapy and psychotropics. 




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    I'm not judging your kids. It's only your method that I'm judging. Your kids sound wonderful; I'm happy to hear that they're intelligent and well-adjusted, and with any luck theyll be very successful. That's awesome! And hell, it's not a competition, either. Perhaps our kids will go into business together, rather than working FOR one another. Too often people make arguments like these to try and justify their habits and make themselves, or their kids, seem "better". I'm not interested in that, personally. My kids are just like anyone else; they have their flaws and weaknesses. I hope they'll go on to do great things, but it's anyone's guess. But whether it's your kids, or Noogis' kids, or my kids, or whoever's kids that go on to do great things for the human race, that's good enough for me. I don't care which, you know? Children in general are something to be celebrated and nurtured; our species is relying on them to do good stuff in the future!


     


    My non-spanking stance isn't about being new-agey or "soft", though. The world is a hard place, and our kids will know struggle and hardship and pain no matter what we do to try and insulate them from it. My point is that they don't need it at home. Home is supposed to be their safe haven from all of that noise in the outside world, and as a parent, I choose to be their guide and partner. I want to spare them whatever suffering I can and teach them how to cope with suffering when they do encounter it. I certainly don't want to inflict suffering upon them, not if I have other options available to me.


     


    Sure, kids who get spanked manage to live great lives. I did, and I'm doing just fine. You, too. Of course, I did "just fine" eating a SAD diet, too. My point is: one can always do better. My parents spanked me a lot less than their parents spanked them. I don't spank at all. I hope that my kids will go on to be even better, more enlightened parents than me. I was fed rather poorly as a kid. I've weaned my kids off of junk except for the occasional indulgence. Maybe their kids will be Bulletproof right from the get-go! For me, it isn't about competition or being considered an "awesome" dad by other people. I don't care how other people view me or my parenting habits, as long as my kids grow up happy and healthy. It's more about taking a moral stance and trying to minimize the suffering in the lives of those people who are most important to me.


     


    Watch that video I posted. There's a link in the description with sources, if you're interested. It's interesting stuff. Just a few years ago, I thought that giving up wheat was insane. Now, it makes perfect sense. Don't knock it till you try it! The human race has been wallowing in violence since the very start. Maybe if non-violent, non-coercive upbringings become the norm, we will actually see the species move forward and accomplish great things.


     


    But simply because you and I "survived" such things, doesn't mean that we're better off for them. People "survive" rape all the time. Doesn't mean that I condone raping people to "build character" or whatever.

    "I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

     

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  • SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭

    When society crumbles and the dust settles, He-man Jason Miller will stand above us all.


     


    But seriously, Conan. How's that Riddle of Steel working out for ya?


    "I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

     

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  • ACH85ACH85 ✭✭


    Instead of smacking your kids for making a ruckus at a restaurant, try and raise mature children who know better than to perform a drum solo with their cutlery. When a kid fucks up, it's almost always a reflection on how shitty their parents are. Spanking won't fix that. Even if it curbs the behavior, it's only going to create a person who looks to solve their problems through force and aggression.




     




     


    Whoa, just to clarify, I was NOT advocating that the mom joining the cutlery drum solo smack the kid. No no no. My point was exactly that the parents should have raised a more mature child, and that the fact that the kid was doing this was a clear response to the parenting style of joining in the inappropriate behavior rather than explaining it properly.


     


    I would advocate that they tell the kid to stop, patiently explain why it's not OK, ask again, and as a last resort one parent should take the kid out of the restaurant (potentially by picking him up against his will) while the other asks for the food to go and pays the bill.


     


    Is picking the kid up and removing him from the restaurant too forceful?


     


    As for the running into traffic incident, I'd been taught better and was in my mom's sight, but was chasing a ball or something, and hadn't yet had a serious injury that would make me truly internalize the whole F=MA thing on a gut level. And just at that rebellious age where you're also starting to run as fast as mom can. (Although to this day I still enjoy aggressive jaywalking, an important skill in New England cities.) 

  • SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭

    No, taking the kid home is certainly an option. Once, when my oldest was young and feeling irritable due to a cold, he had a melt-down at a restaurant and, when I couldn't calm him down, I took him back to the car with me and ate my meal whilst listening to a chorus of screams. Sometimes that's the better option, definitely.


     


    Also, I'm all about jaywalking. I almost make a game out of it, honestly. Take that, government!


    "I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

     

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  • Thanks for posting. I knew those facts and correlations, but having them laid out in a presentation like that is great.


    A lot of people on here put a lot of faith in studies and in science. I challenge those who hit their kids to check out this video and look into these studies. The evidence is compelling.


    A nice primer:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONNRfflggBg

  • SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭


    A lot of people on here put a lot of faith in studies and in science. I challenge those who hit their kids to check out this video and look into these studies. The evidence is compelling.




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    Exactly! If you're a rational person who likes to base your life on facts, then you need to acquaint yourself with the science here. This isn't just hippy feel-good bullshit or something. It'll be a huge shift in mentality for some, but hell, if you're Bulletproof, you've already moved away from a lot of conventional opinions. What's one more, especially when the implications are so important?

    "I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

     

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  • I first decided not to spank based on the science.

    That was before my hippy feel good bullshit spiritual path. Now I don't hit for lots of reasons.


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    Exactly! If you're a rational person who likes to base your life on facts, then you need to acquaint yourself with the science here. This isn't just hippy feel-good bullshit or something. It'll be a huge shift in mentality for some, but hell, if you're Bulletproof, you've already moved away from a lot of conventional opinions. What's one more, especially when the implications are so important?

  • SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭

    Yeah, I agree. I used to be one of those guys who thought you had to spank to build character. "My parents spanked me and I turned out just fine. Social Darwinism, rawr!" But then, walking the non-aggression/Anti-statist path, I discovered some stuff about non-aggression and not spanking along the way, and it just made sense. Like, it was really strange how little resistance I put up to the idea. For all my life I'd been in favor of spanking-- had thought it necessary. And then, suddenly, I didn't. I understood precisely why it was wrong and that it had some definite consequences. And now, I feel there's more to it than just the science. It's a moral thing, for me. I feel like it's made me a better, more compassionate person overall. Showing your kids compassion seems like common sense, but when you make a point of doing it, it's amazing how much your relationships and respect for people as a whole tend to improve.


    "I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

     

    Let's be friends on MyFitnessPal!

  • Danno RedDanno Red Practical Man
    edited April 2014

    It's amazing the level you (demon) think spanking is a reflection of one's compassion and morals. I spank my child, in critical corrective situations no other time. Another similar behavior? Vaccinations. Small harm for greater good. It's a tug on the wheel to correct course for the long term...I'd do the same in a car to avoid crashing into an object falling off a dump truck. Not that I'd ever have to because I don't tailgate, don't speed, and am vigilantly watching 10-20 car lengths ahead of me. And to define spanking, it's a single, open palm to the butt. I'm going to watch the video next but wanted to comment on the compassion...I believe the spanking isn't aggression, it's protection. I don't believe in sparing my child the full range of life's feelings and emotions. What I believe I'm doing is PREPARING them for the best and worst in life so they're ready and capable of dealing with them with grace and style. And most importantly, when it comes to spanking, to prevent behaviors that could cut their lives short. If you have kids, you have to know you can't prevent everything...if you did, count yourself lucky.


     


    And comparing these single spanks in extremely isolated incidents, demon, I disagree that it's the same as statist-style discipline of the 50's. As a day-care-free family I have tons of time alone with my kids to play board games, cuddle, read to, be read to, help with homework, etc. I get my morning hugs & kisses before work, and more when I get home. My kids know, because I told them, that I'd die to save their lives or protect them. Compassion? Do you know how many times we've taken injured animals to shelters for help and donated a little cash to help? Squirrels, starlings, you name it. We've done impromptu missions to deliver turtles to ponds that were trying to cross streets. We've regularly jumped into the window well at our house to rescue leopard frogs. Each night we say grace at dinner, but it's not what you think...it's a requirement to say thank you for two things you're thankful for...from truckers delivering food, to chickens laying the eggs, to mom making the food, to my wife's or my salary paying for it, to the DOT plowing the roads so I can get home, to the cow dying for our main course, or even the vegetable giving its life for us. 


     


    Lastly, I find it strange that as a non-aggression, anti-statist, and being a "better, more compassionate" person sees eating out of your father's skull as normal if he raises a hand against you. Dear, God, talk about over-reaction...murder and blood lust celebration? As an adult, who's independent and compassionate, if your life's not dependent on retaliation--WALK AWAY.


     


    It's sort of all irrelavant because my kids are going to soon be beyond the age where spanking is even part of the toolkit...but I won't take it out because of fear of retaliation (nor damaging their psyche) but because I'd rather talk to them about consequences. But at the early cognitive stages I believe that's a fruitless ambition...too primal, and not cerebral at the young age. And non-verbal animals use the same techniques with their young. Well, off to check out the video, so thanks for sharing...I'm always open to new information and ideas. I'll let you know if you've changed my mind. If you found out you were wrong about spanking, would you do the same?


  • Danno RedDanno Red Practical Man
    edited April 2014

    Watched the video...thanks for sharing. It does not, however, change my stance. First, the periodocity of our spanking doesn't fit the definition of corporal punishment used in the studies (>3 episodes of spanking per week). For more disagreement about MY practice versus the abuse other lazier parents use who: start too early (some spank as early as 6 months!), go too late (still spanking teens--WTF?!?), spank out of anger (claim to have "lost it"--that's not us), not using other methods of behavior correction, use of implements (WTF?!?), and on and on and on. This is a prototypical view of black versus white and you lumped my practice of spanking into the category of black, along with the ne'r-do-wells that use it as their only corrective action--which is clearly just taking your anger out on your children and is abuse, not corrective action. I'd agree with almost everything the narrator says, that this is abuse. It does lead to a great incidence of child/spousal abuse in future generations, substance abuse, sexually aberrant behavior, bullying, etc. 


     


    Where I disagree with him is that 2-5 year olds are cerebral enough to be bargained with or discussed. My daughter read at 4...she spoke at 1. Told jokes, as in MADE HER OWN UP, at 2. By all measures academically she's a high-flier. There's a program called "Cares" at her school where kids earn coupons for good deeds...she's the only one in the history of the program to get to the pink rating on the board for best behavior. Maybe the narrator is right and N=1 of "turned out OK" means she'd be even better without the half-dozen spankings she received in her life, but N=2 (her little brother) shows all the signs of being the same way...standing up for other kids on the playground, being the best behaved in his pre-school class, acing his kindergarten screening, etc. I hate bragging about my kids, but they're not here, and neither are any of my friends or family, so this is merely data for you to chew on. I encourage you to change your view on use of spanking as I practice it because I believe in my heart it could save a kid's life. I, for all intents and purposes, received all the confirmation of a job-well-done with my spanking-as-corrective-action, when I see my daughter running towards the street and the hardwiring kick in as she hits the brakes, stops, looks left, right, and left before going into the street. Guess, what? Joe's showing the same signs of restraint at the street having only been spanked once for street behavior...plus we drum it in EVERY time we cross a street or parking lot--left, right, left. If Joe phones it in (because he's still learning), I ask him to tell me what color the car was that was there (when he can't answer I tell him he must take it seriously--always). No spanking for laziness, that's where verbal intervention comes in. But if he ran out, his butt would sting--if he didn't get run over. It's too bad I fall into the bad category, because Noogis really is right about me...I've put a lot more thought into this than most. And it appears to be working.


     


    And again, I'm not bragging or claiming to be the best, because God knows I'm making mistakes, but I put my soul into raising my kids and my wife does, too...and while I don't want a pat on the back for a job well done (unless it comes from my kids some day when they're parents or just grown up) I don't appreciate it one bit being lumped into the impulsive hitters, child abusers and lazy goddamn parents by judgmental, holier-than-thou people from afar on the internet or in-person. If you were here in-person and told me what I was doing was wrong I'd give you this same explanation because I believe in what I'm doing for the safety and health and well-being of my children. And if my child, picked up a rock and threw it at a kid or called someone dumb, they'd get a spanking...even if at the front of a congregation of people in a church at a funeral...I must be doing something right, though, because my kids are kind and compassionate, and thanks to feedback from sources (teachers, other parents, etc.) I know it's not through rose-tinted, parental glasses.


  • ACH85ACH85 ✭✭


    (still spanking teens--WTF?!?)




     




     


    Yeah, the video started to lose me when it claimed 20% of high school seniors are spanked regularly. That's simply not true, or we'd see 10% of parents of high school seniors walking around with black eyes: you don't spank a 17 or 18 year old, you get into a fight with one. Then the video started using "hitting" and "corporal punishment" interchangeably with "spanking" and ramping up that wording, a clear attempt to mask persuasion under the guise of reading data. Although I agree with the overall message that most spanking, the way most parents use it, is counterproductive and probably immoral. 


     


    OK I will butt out now since I don't have kids, just opinions on childhood development. When I first posted I thought I was simply contributing an example of bad parenting that stuck out in my memory. (You know, like the thread topic  :rolleyes: ) 

  • Danno RedDanno Red Practical Man

    When they ask you if you're ready for kids, invariably the answer is (or should be) no ... so, never too early to start thinking about how you'll do things. Sounds like you have your head in the right place ACH.


  • NoogisNoogis
    edited April 2014
    The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name.

    Hitting is hitting is hitting. Whatever the reason.


    Sugar coating words to make everyone feel better just perpetuates the problems.


    Telling kids " if you dont do what I say you are going to get a pow pow" might sound better than I am going to hit you if you dont do what I say, but it's the same thing.
  • NoogisNoogis
    edited April 2014
    And Dan, we have established that you aren't a brain dead parent that hits out of anger. That's mostly what I'm talking about here, whether I agree with spanking or not, there is definitely degrees to consider.
  • Hitting and spanking is the same thing, you are taking your hand and hitting their butt (hopefully just their butt) or some parents use an instrument or belt to do that. You can try to change the word about to obfuscate the message and make it seem nicer, but it is still the same thing. If everyone clearly labeled things for what they were, there would be a lot less confusion and more understanding. 


     


    Try to apply the treatment of your kids to that of other relationships and see if it would be successful or acceptable. You are the manager at work and your employee didn't do what you said, or did something in an unsafe manner? Hit them of course. Conversely the argument is always made in such a way to make hitting your kids acceptable by saying - "They just don't understand" or "they are still developing" which actually makes it even less acceptable.


     


    I'm not sure how anyone could try and justify hitting their kids, because they were in eminent danger and want to modify their behavior to "protect" them. You failed at protecting them the second they were in that position, hit yourself not your kid. I didn't learn to cross the street safely and look both ways by my parents hitting me for running into the street (which did happen), I learned to cross it safely by being at an age of understanding, and them being able to explain to my WHY I needed to look both ways and not run into the street without checking for cars.


     


    The biggest problem is many people do not have UNIVERSAL standards. I think most people would agree you shouldn't hit your spouse to modify their behavior, or use physical violence against them to try and get them to do something they don't want to do when you ask. Since we apply these standards to other relationships, why can't we apply them to ALL relationships? It's even worse to hit your kids, they did not choose to have you as a parent, and they cannot leave the relationship.


     


    We're not animals, trying to use examples of how animals behave isn't really applicable. As society why can't we move FORWARD? People have learned you can accomplish more by working together instead of having tribes always trying to take from each other, why can't we try and raise our kids better than our parents did? Lots of kids were hit and they turned out fine, wouldn't you want your kids to be even better than you?


  • Respectfully, this is rediculous. Not everyone can stand up to a parent who beat them their whole lives.






    Yeah, the video started to lose me when it claimed 20% of high school seniors are spanked regularly. That's simply not true, or we'd see 10% of parents of high school seniors walking around with black eyes: you don't spank a 17 or 18 year old, you get into a fight with one. d topic :rolleyes: )
  • Danno RedDanno Red Practical Man

    So you let your kids drive? Drink booze? Carry concealed weapons? How about watch R-rated movies or play adult video games? I hope not. We live by different rules as we move through life. Some are absolute. Others change with age. Still others vary by zip code. Many are written down and a few are unwritten. Some are unspoken. The sooner we appreciate the variability of rules the better I believe.


    I've seen no evidence of perpetuation of violence in our house (this isn't an admission that my brand of spanking is violent)--unless you're referring to the use of spanking, in which case, at least right now I see no reason for regret. Problems associated with spanking (not hitting, not sugar coating--just exercising nuanced use of words) halt at our house. None of the so-called side-effects have been demonstrated. Spanking is spanking. Hitting is hitting. Spanking is not hitting. The only spanking that gets issued in a boxing/mma match is merely metaphorical. And nobody getting a slap on the butt in a baseball game complains about being hit. Even in youth sports.


    The beginning of wisdom, is to admit you don't know. I've admitted I may be doing things wrong regarding my discipline approach...have you? Time, however, is piling up evidence that my beliefs and practices aren't that bad. 


  • NoogisNoogis
    edited April 2014
    The evidence is quite the opposite. Again, I'm talking about corporal punishment as a whole. I'm not discussing you in particular, which is what most of your responses address.


    The correlative evidence suggests that there is a spectrum of abuse, and a spectrum of results. Similar to epigenetics. It is not possible to say that if you spank x will happen. It is very possible that a lot of the outcomes are because most people are unconscious assholes, and since most people spank, most people are spanking unconscious assholes.


    It is very possible that your kids are awesome because you are an awesome father. It is very possible and probably even likely that being an awesome father plus minimal spanking will not create the kind of outcome studies suggest.


    Giving a moron populace free reign to hit their kids is an extremely bad idea. Saying that time has proven your way is very erroneous in my opinion. History is full of some pretty nasty things and assholes breed assholes.


    What would happen if we had several generations of parents paying attention to their kids, not hitting them, and setting them up to be good to people rather than to be some tough guy that needs to deal with the harsh world.


    The last thing we need is more hardened people in this world.


    Am I do things wrong? Very possible.
  • Danno RedDanno Red Practical Man


    Hitting and spanking is the same thing, you are taking your hand and hitting their butt (hopefully just their butt) or some parents use an instrument or belt to do that. You can try to change the word about to obfuscate the message and make it seem nicer, but it is still the same thing. If everyone clearly labeled things for what they were, there would be a lot less confusion and more understanding. 


     


    Try to apply the treatment of your kids to that of other relationships and see if it would be successful or acceptable. You are the manager at work and your employee didn't do what you said, or did something in an unsafe manner? Hit them of course. Conversely the argument is always made in such a way to make hitting your kids acceptable by saying - "They just don't understand" or "they are still developing" which actually makes it even less acceptable.


     


    Absurd. You can't spank a stranger any more than you can tell them what to wear when it's cold. Try again.


     


    I'm not sure how anyone could try and justify hitting their kids, because they were in eminent danger and want to modify their behavior to "protect" them. You failed at protecting them the second they were in that position, hit yourself not your kid. I didn't learn to cross the street safely and look both ways by my parents hitting me for running into the street (which did happen), I learned to cross it safely by being at an age of understanding, and them being able to explain to my WHY I needed to look both ways and not run into the street without checking for cars.


     


    This is to say that everything a kid does impulsively is the parents' fault. So you're one of those people. No parent can protect a child 100%. Again, absurd. There are so many studies that children don't weigh consequences because the planning part of their brain hasn't activated yet. For a significant period of time, only pleasure and pain influence decision making. You know I constantly tell my kids to look both ways...it took a long time before words sunk in. That's just one thing. 100% is a lot of the time, and I'd love to come over and evaluate your home for safety. I could probably give you some points of safety improvement if you would post a video walk through of your house here via YouTube. Here's a freebie--get an instantaneous water heater so you can set the water temp to a level that cannot burn skin. I also have some excellent baby-proofing hacks that work great and cost virtually nothing.


     


    The biggest problem is many people do not have UNIVERSAL standards. I think most people would agree you shouldn't hit your spouse to modify their behavior, or use physical violence against them to try and get them to do something they don't want to do when you ask. Since we apply these standards to other relationships, why can't we apply them to ALL relationships? It's even worse to hit your kids, they did not choose to have you as a parent, and they cannot leave the relationship.


     


    You shouldn't attempt to modify your spouse's behavior. They are your equal. You can advise or even plea but they are autonomous as your co-workers.


     


    We're not animals, trying to use examples of how animals behave isn't really applicable. As society why can't we move FORWARD? People have learned you can accomplish more by working together instead of having tribes always trying to take from each other, why can't we try and raise our kids better than our parents did? Lots of kids were hit and they turned out fine, wouldn't you want your kids to be even better than you?


     


    We are animals. We share ~82% of our DNA with dogs, and a lot more with chimps. 




     


    Noogis: you're right about standing up to an abuser...isn't that Stockholm/captor syndrome? No matter how heinous the crime(s), you forgive and even love your abuser? Which is why the perpetuation and acceptance of violence exists...that's their idea of love and what's normal. Why wives accept abusive spouses. Why abusers abuse in the first place. But spanking a teen/pre-teen is not normal. Cognition is possible here and control by reward/privilege (or the withholding thereof). There's a difference in desired outcomes: abuse is about domination and control and a failure to handle one's emotions. Discipline is about the hope for adaptation/change. We could argue about this forever but I'd wager I'm right. I look forward to never having to spank again, because it means I know my kids are learning and can be course-corrected with reason...which is happening...and I may never have to spank again. But I won't intentionally lobby against judicious use of painful stimuli. Did you know they also use painful stimuli in the medical field to assess level of conciousness? Is that tantamount to abuse? I don't think so...some pain has a purpose. And you might want to consider the possibility that people are better off with some...

  • ACH85ACH85 ✭✭

    That's why I cut the percentage in half in my example. If 20% of high school seniors are actually being hit, you would see SOME level of retaliation, even if my 10% is wrong.


     




    Respectfully, this is rediculous. Not everyone can stand up to a parent who beat them their whole lives.



  • And I'm not sure how concealed weapons and r rated movies have any relevance. I know you are using extreme examples to exaggerate your point, but it really just shows me we aren't on the same page here.


    Of course people live by different rules as they move through life. That doesn't mean they should be hit by someone who they look to as an example.


    Children learn by example. They can learn to problem solve peacefully , or solve problems with aggression
  • NoogisNoogis
    edited April 2014
    I guess it's just my speculation vs yours, I'm just using statistics to back up mine.

    I say that sincerely, not in an asshole way.


    That's why I cut the percentage in half in my example. If 20% of high school seniors are actually being hit, you would see SOME level of retaliation, even if my 10% is wrong.

  • SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭

    It's wonderful that your children seem to be flourishing DESPITE their being spanked, Dan. I think the trouble here is that you're attributing some of their success to the act of spanking when that may not be the case. People manage to live normal-ish, successful lives putting up with much worse than the sort of corporal punishment you've described, however that doesn't suddenly legitimize the practices. But hey. I sincerely wish your kids the best. Let's hope that they don't develop any issues down the road and that they continue to be happy, successful kids. As for me, I don't have to question my methods; excluding self-defense situations, non-violence is always the right choice.


     


    In the way of teens getting spanked, well, I've known a few who still got beat by their dad until they were either old enough to defend themselves or they moved out. When someone's beat on you your whole life and you've had no choice but to take it, it can be very hard to break free from that sort of relationship, or to change your mindset and fight back. It's kind of like being a battered wife, I assume. Some open their eyes to their situation and fight back; many don't.


     


    This sort of discussion rarely changes anyone's mind, unfortunately. Most are too recalcitrant, set in their ways, to consider the damage they may be doing by spanking. Or perhaps there isn't any damage, right? Well, I'm not willing to take that chance, as each incidence of spanking then becomes something of a Russian roulette, in a way. But hey, I'm not going to try and convince you. Thanks for watching the video, and I hope at least that it made for some interesting food for thought. For my part, I'm all too familiar with the spanking side and feel certain that no one is capable of putting together eloquent enough a defense of the practice to sway me-- not when the facts prove it could lead to bad news. Why take the chance? That's really what it comes down to.


     


    Getting back to the point in the OP, my kids are going to an Easter egg hunt today. I'll be lucky if they don't devour all of the candy before I can get it away from them!


    "I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

     

    Let's be friends on MyFitnessPal!

  • Danno RedDanno Red Practical Man


    The evidence is quite the opposite. Again, I'm talking about corporal punishment as a whole. I'm not discussing you in particular, which is what most of your responses address.


    The correlative evidence suggests that there is a spectrum of abuse, and a spectrum of results. Similar to epigenetics. It is not possible to say that if you spank x will happen. It is very possible that a lot of the outcomes are because most people are unconscious assholes, and since most people spank, most people are spanking unconscious assholes.


    It is very possible that your kids are awesome because you are an awesome father. It is very possible and probably even likely that being an awesome father plus minimal spanking will not create the kind of outcome studies suggest.


    Giving a moron populace free reign to hit their kids is an extremely bad idea. Saying that time has proven your way is very erroneous in my opinion. History is full of some pretty nasty things and assholes breed assholes.


    What would happen if we had several generations of parents paying attention to their kids, not hitting them, and setting them up to be good to people rather than to be some tough guy that needs to deal with the harsh world.


    The last thing we need is more hardened people in this world.


    Am I do things wrong? Very possible.




     




    The evidence is quite the opposite. Again, I'm talking about corporal punishment as a whole. I'm not discussing you in particular, which is what most of your responses address.


    The correlative evidence suggests that there is a spectrum of abuse, and a spectrum of results. Similar to epigenetics. It is not possible to say that if you spank x will happen. It is very possible that a lot of the outcomes are because most people are unconscious assholes, and since most people spank, most people are spanking unconscious assholes.


    It is very possible that your kids are awesome because you are an awesome father. It is very possible and probably even likely that being an awesome father plus minimal spanking will not create the kind of outcome studies suggest.


    Giving a moron populace free reign to hit their kids is an extremely bad idea. Saying that time has proven your way is very erroneous in my opinion. History is full of some pretty nasty things and assholes breed assholes.


    What would happen if we had several generations of parents paying attention to their kids, not hitting them, and setting them up to be good to people rather than to be some tough guy that needs to deal with the harsh world.


    The last thing we need is more hardened people in this world.


    Am I do things wrong? Very possible.




     


    Again, I agree, that we suffer, as a nation, from inattentive, un-involved, un-loving parents that very possibly regret the role they find themselves in. And, due to the rigors of parenting, even un-involved, lazy parenting, many people find themselves overwhelmed and unable to deal with their emotions and those of their children. So they explode. But I'm telling you right now, spanking, as I practice it, is not hitting. I can't say I'm an awesome father...the only people that have that right would be my kids...and I may never hear it. But I made sure I told, and continue to remind my father that he was an awesome dad. Hopefully I'll hear it too...but what can't be debated is that I'm trying, I'm engaged and I have an awesome teammate at home in my wife...and my little son (by adoption) and my daughter (by birth) as different as they are looking identical in their progression and response to us as parents.


     


    But I just don't know how a government could possibly try to regulate parenthood and discipline beyond the physical abuse laws that already do little to save poor babies shaken to death by teen mom's new boyfriend. And even less heinous that the extreme use of "spanking" (repeated strikes, for any and all infractions), with implements, before an appropriate age (who'd decide? I'd certainly say 1 is too young, but 2? 3?)...I don't know...but someone should change the topic of this thread to spanking because we've clearly moved from judging others to judging ourselves...but as parents that care (regardless of the actions we take) it's the trap we fall into...second guessing and doubt, but under all that...hope.

  • Danno RedDanno Red Practical Man
    edited April 2014


    It's wonderful that your children seem to be flourishing DESPITE their being spanked, Dan. I think the trouble here is that you're attributing some of their success to the act of spanking when that may not be the case. People manage to live normal-ish, successful lives putting up with much worse than the sort of corporal punishment you've described, however that doesn't suddenly legitimize the practices. But hey. I sincerely wish your kids the best. Let's hope that they don't develop any issues down the road and that they continue to be happy, successful kids. As for me, I don't have to question my methods; excluding self-defense situations, non-violence is always the right choice.


     


    Getting back to the point in the OP, my kids are going to an Easter egg hunt today. I'll be lucky if they don't devour all of the candy before I can get it away from them!




     


    To the contrary, I attribute their survival and behavior around safety hazards to the spanking...not their successes...they don't run into traffic after a ball. They don't climb kitchen cabinets or reach onto the stove or counters. The list of successes are a paltry illustration in the lack of harm caused by my spanking. They haven't turned into bullies, violent, unmanageable, reduced IQ (maybe I cost 'em 5 points but I think the time I spend enriching their minds with adult conversation and answering their unending questions makes up for it if it does happen), emotionally compromised, future substance, spouse or child abusers nor all the other nasty things the poor kids that get spanked on a daily basis by asshole tyrant parents that hate their roles as parents or who otherwise lack the patience or concern to thoughtfully contribute to the growing of the little person for whom they're responsible. Totally not meant as bragging...just the only "proof" (as loosely as that term can be used) I can provide in my N=2 sample that my form of spanking isn't harming. Of course, I was spanked, and turned out OK...very infrequently...so I'm biased.


     


    @DESP: you said I should try to be better than my parents? I'm so happy with how they did things that I can only hope to be as good...not sure I could be better...but I'm trying. And you better get on Demon's case for not protecting his kids 100% from the evils of candy or falling down a hill or twisting an ankle...because then by your approach, it'd be his fault and he should hit himself...oh boy. 


  • SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭

    The myth of the benevolent dictator.


     


    "I only do it sometimes, and for reasons that I think are legitimate."


     


    Ok. You say that "tyrant parents lack the patience or concern to thoughtfully contribute to the growing" of their kids. I guess that, for me, I don't show patience or concern through physical violence, and "thoughtfully contributing" violence is in itself an absurd notion.


     


    I think it's rather telling, Dan, that you're the only person in this 3-page thread that feels the need to so rigorously defend their practices. None of us have attacked you; only expressed our distaste for spanking. The rest of us apparently don't feel the need to defend our life choices or to wax poetic about how much better our kids are turning out because of them, but you've written plenty of posts on the virtuous life you lead and about how excellent your children are. This isn't to say that I don't believe you. But it smacks of insecurity. Take care that you aren't retreating to this stance simply because you feel judged or guilty about what you've done. It's true that I disagree with your practice, but you don't really need to fill a thread on the internet with reasons why it's OK-- not just to silence some guy with a cartoon avatar on the internet.


    "I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

     

    Let's be friends on MyFitnessPal!

  • Danno RedDanno Red Practical Man

    >>>>>>>>


    This sort of discussion rarely changes anyone's mind, unfortunately. Most are too recalcitrant, set in their ways, to consider the damage they may be doing by spanking. Or perhaps there isn't any damage, right? Well, I'm not willing to take that chance, as each incidence of spanking then becomes something of a Russian roulette, in a way. But hey, I'm not going to try and convince you. Thanks for watching the video, and I hope at least that it made for some interesting food for thought. For my part, I'm all too familiar with the spanking side and feel certain that no one is capable of putting together eloquent enough a defense of the practice to sway me-- not when the facts prove it could lead to bad news. Why take the chance? That's really what it comes down to.


    >>>>>>>>


     


    I'm also not interested in playing Russian roulette ... with safety ... I know my kids are now, effectively, hard-wired to look both ways before bolting into a street ... I will keep reminding and keep overseeing, but I'd rather deal with the remote possibility that my kids actually might defy their developmental progression trajectories and take a turn towards sociopath from an occasional spanking, than risk the very real threat of them getting run over by an inattentive teen driver, a slow-reacting octogenarian or distracted soccer mom on a cellphone in a Target parking lot. I've chosen to risk by what appears to be a trivial amount of psychiatric harm, for the physical risk ... my kids, as a result, will also know that of all the people looking out for their safety, they should be the most involved, not some walk sign or painted stripes at an intersection ... they'll remember my wife & I taught them that.

  • Dan, I am the last person that would advocate the government regulating anything. I'm talking about changing what is socially acceptable.


    So here is my overall view.


    I believe that teaching children from an early age that they need to bow down to authority is what creates a world full of lemmings.

    This idea continues through public school, and on into a career and for the rest of peoples lives.


    People learn from an early age that it is okay to be a serf. They become just another consumer cog doing what they are told.


    This started with the advent of agriculture. Cities got bigger, populations grew. Families grew because they relied on them to tend the fields. Children and even wives became property just like animals. People got used to the idea of being serfs, rather than an equal member in a tribe.



    Because of Dunbars number, it became very easy for people to just get lost in the mix and essentially become property of a larger dominance.


    By practicing corporal punishment, we are just perpetuating this myth that we need to be subservient.


    My child doesn't even get time out. We have conversations about why we do some things and why we don't do other things. We talk about being a member of the tribe. This is the way things originally were. people toed the line and participated because they wanted to not because of threats.


    My child is generally the most well-behaved anytime we are out in public. We get quite a few comments about it as well. Some parents resent us for it, some parents ask questions.


    Corporal punishment just isn't necessary. I have seen firsthand what a five-year-old who is respected as a person will act like.


    I am very proud of the fact that if I were to spank him he would look at me like I was a complete moron and say why do you think you can hit me?


    He would not be disrespectful to me in any other sense because we have respect for each other. But if I did try to hit him he would get really pissed off. I am raising him to know that nobody has the right to hit him, or to dominate him, or to control him. But it is just as important to have respect for others.

    He doesn't act spoiled in the least so, so far, I have all the proof I need the corporal punishment is not necessary, in fact I would say it is detrimental.


    I could go on but at some point we have already reached, we are just masturbating egos and bloviating.
  • SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭

    I feel very fortunate that my children are willing and intelligent enough to listen to me, and that I'm attentive enough to keep an eye on them when there are cars or what have you in the area. Glad I don't have to reinforce that idea with violence.


     


    And yeah. Fuck authority. There are few myths more damaging to human progress than this.


    "I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

     

    Let's be friends on MyFitnessPal!

  • Danno RedDanno Red Practical Man


    The myth of the benevolent dictator.


     


    "I only do it sometimes, and for reasons that I think are legitimate."


     


    Ok. You say that "tyrant parents lack the patience or concern to thoughtfully contribute to the growing" of their kids. I guess that, for me, I don't show patience or concern through physical violence, and "thoughtfully contributing" violence is in itself an absurd notion.


     


    I think it's rather telling, Dan, that you're the only person in this 3-page thread that feels the need to so rigorously defend their practices. None of us have attacked you; only expressed our distaste for spanking. The rest of us apparently don't feel the need to defend our life choices or to wax poetic about how much better our kids are turning out because of them, but you've written plenty of posts on the virtuous life you lead and about how excellent your children are. This isn't to say that I don't believe you. But it smacks of insecurity. Take care that you aren't retreating to this stance simply because you feel judged or guilty about what you've done. It's true that I disagree with your practice, but you don't really need to fill a thread on the internet with reasons why it's OK-- not just to silence some guy with a cartoon avatar on the internet.




     


    I saw your curse laden reply as an attack. I believe my practice is life saving. I believe parents that can't think about alternatives to "talking to 2 year olds about consequences" warrants shouting to the heavens so kids don't get run over or hurt in the kitchen. Burn wards are filled with kids that didn't learn from repeated verbal warnings. ER's see many kids hit by cars because they trusted a crosswalk. I'm passionate that what I do, the selective use of spanking, can save a life. And I've got 3 different people telling me how wrong I am...I believe you're perpetuating a myth of your own by confusing appropriate and inappropriate forms of discipline. To have a thread filled with opposition, if one believes in the counter argument, it's the belief in its effectiveness, not insecurity, that warrants sticking to it. Someone stumbles across this I'd like them to see that a reasonable person had good results...I'm not bragging...promise I'm not, just presenting the positive outcome of a behavior you, noogis & desp are so vehemently opposed to. I'm not ashamed...pretty sure I said I'd spank for a justified offense at the front of a church full of people if one of my kids did something to deserve it. No shame. No insecurity...just the faith, and conviction to stand behind the use of something that is under fire by the general public and parenting elite.

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