What's The Worst You've Seen?

13

Comments

  • SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭

    Faith is nice. Keep it in church. Find me some facts and figures that say that spanking is beneficial.


     


    Spoiler: You won't find any. Because it isn't.


     


    These mythical ERs and burn wards full of children who just didn't get spanked enough to know better are, well, ridiculous and mythical. I work in a hospital and I see sick kids all the time. Sure, sometimes accidents happen. But several in this thread have made it clear that they don't have to spank their kids to get them to learn not to play in traffic. Your argument is weak, and your insistence that spanking "saves lives" is perhaps the most hyperbolic, silly thing I've read in this thread.


     


    Spank your kids if you want. I'm not exactly going to march into your house and stop ya, mate. But holy shit, cut the ignorance. "Saving their lives"? LOL.

    "I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

     

    Let's be friends on MyFitnessPal!

  • Danno RedDanno Red Practical Man


    Spank your kids if you want. I'm not exactly going to march into your house and stop ya, mate. But holy shit, cut the ignorance. "Saving their lives"? LOL.




     


    You're missing the point...I don't want to. I don't want them to do things that make it necessary (admittedly in my mind) for sharp course corrections. I do, however, want the freedom to quickly make behavior changes for truly life-and-death situations...street safety is one from among many. And like I said many times, it sure seems to work...I see a lot of kids darting around in parking lots and across streets...one distracted driver away from a funeral. Attentive parenting or not, you can't protect both of your kids from all access points to danger...you can't be everywhere at once. The quicker you plant life-preserving instincts in your kids the better. I chose one method. I don't enjoy it, but I'm glad to see it works. I'm also glad to see it's need to be used is passing...as I always figured it would with age.


     


    Last word's yours if you want it...

  • ACH85ACH85 ✭✭
    edited April 2014


    I guess it's just my speculation vs yours, I'm just using statistics to back up mine.

    I say that sincerely, not in an asshole way.




     




     


    I know you're not trying to be an asshole. This is a personal and emotional topic and things are bound to get heated, and I have so much less skin in the game right now because I'm not a parent. And yet, reading a lot of this, I have an urge to defend my mom's single, once-in-my-lifetime spanking. I don't think that's a victim mentality either.


     


    The statistic of 20% of high school seniors caught my eye as highly questionable, and it still does. I just checked the references, and it's not cited. A few of the references are bad links, so I guess we don't know.


     


    That said, your general philosophy of treating kids with respect and like intelligent people really makes sense to me. I was an only child, and as a sociology major my senior thesis was on the adult personality traits that correlate to different numbers of siblings, including zero siblings. A near-universal experience of only children is being treated as "little adults" by their parents, meaning a lack of corporal punishment, extended conversations, avoiding things like "time outs" and groundings, etc, in favor of discussion. This was my experience as well, aside from the single running into the street and getting spanked incident. Many of my earliest memories are of extreme frustration while being talked down to by adults who were not my parents, expected to misbehave when I wasn't going to, and of watching other children my age misbehaving and not being able to make sense of it. As a teenager I had more restraint and responsibility than kids my age, which I also attribute to that style of upbringing. So plenty of agreement with your general philosophy. But I also did enough stupid things that got me or other kids around me hurt while my parents were trying to calmly talk to me that I think maybe a SLIGHT bit more force might have been good on my parents' part. 


     


     




    Absurd. You can't spank a stranger any more than you can tell them what to wear when it's cold.




     




     


    I have been spanked by a stranger :???:      


    Luckily she was cute and couldn't run as fast as me when I tried to spank her back. I'm a monster. 


  • Wow! This turned out to be a very fascinating discussion. And to think, I was just wondering about putting flavored and colored sugar in a baby's formula.  :-P

  • StevoStevo Upgrade in Progress

    "I am very proud of the fact that if I were to spank him he would look at me like I was a complete moron and say why do you think you can hit me?"


     


    I love this line.


  • SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭
    edited April 2014

    Today I was wrasslin' with my little ones and my one-year old head-butted me in the mouth. His little head is like a wrecking ball, and while he didn't do it on purpose, it hurt like hell! I said "Ouch! That really hurt!" and fought the urge to curse. And then, seeing that I was in pain, he came up to me, put his hand on my arm and gave me a kiss. My lip is still a little sore, but it made my day haha. Kids are so sweet sometimes.


    "I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

     

    Let's be friends on MyFitnessPal!

  • Danno RedDanno Red Practical Man


    Today I was wrasslin' with my little ones and my one-year old head-butted me in the mouth. His little head is like a wrecking ball, and while he didn't do it on purpose, it hurt like hell! I said "Ouch! That really hurt!" and fought the urge to curse. And then, seeing that I was in pain, he came up to me, put his hand on my arm and gave me a kiss. My lip is still a little sore, but it made my day haha. Kids are so sweet sometimes.




     


    Oh, my, yes, I couldn't agree more and that's exactly how what I've called it--a wrecking ball. 1-3 year olds always lead with that big ol' melon! I learned pretty quick from the splitting pain in the face to be on guard for hugs but my wife (glutton for punishment?) has taken a number of shots to the chin or cheekbone when receiving an exuberant hug or kiss. They always feel really guilty just by seeing your grimace. Those soft spots on their young heads always scared me but not as much as the pain they could induce with the forehead!


     


    Hope everyone had a fun Easter or Passover with family!

  • Demon, I finds it utterly bewildering that you are 25, yet you seem to think you know all there is about raising children?  And how old are your children that you are allowing them to hitchhike home when they misbehave?  I am thoroughly confused. 


     


    Having a 1 year old and dealing with the challenges that come along with raising a child that age is completly different than having a child who is 2, 3, 4, 5, or 10.  It's easy to think you know all there is to know before you've walked in another's shoes!  New challenges come at each stage.  When my 4 year old was 1 and 2, he had NO angry or violent outbursts EVER, but when he turned 3 and the testesterone started pumping through his body, holy cow, that changed pretty quickly.  So you deal with issues as they arise.  You're no better than your neighbor whose child misbehaves in different ways than your own.  Who knows, maybe that child is acting up in that way for the first time? 


     


    Also, for everyone who is blaming the parent for every minor infraction committed by their child, are you serious?  You can't chalk it ALL up to nurture.  Nature plays a HUGE part too!  My three children are all so completely different and we relate with each one based on their individual needs and personalities.  So unless, you've raised someone else's child, judge them all you want, but it's fruitless and it's stupid to do so.  You never know what is truly going on there.  Kids listen sometimes and sometimes they dont!  The only thing you can judge to some extent is, is that parent being consistent with setting boundaries for their child, but even then, you can't get a true picture on unless you live with the person.


     


    I used to get holy hell from my husbands aunts and uncles every time we'd visit because my oldest, now 4, from age 1-2 1/2 would run around like a complete spaz, getting into EVERYTHING, and I'd be right next to him pulling things out of his hands and letting him know what he could and couldn't do.  He never hurt anyone.  He was never rude.  He never hit.  He never broke anything.  He was just wild and ALL OVER THE PLACE and it pissed them all off horribly.  Then, their child had a child, who is now 20 months old and he's a complete spaz, plus he is HORRIBLY violent and mean.  And now they are looking to me, the one who they judged and spoke harsly to, for validation on why their daughter's child behaves so horribly. 


     


    The point is, kids will be kids.  Be a good parent to your kids, set limits and boundaries and make sure they understand right from wrong.  Stop looking at someone else so you can label them inferior to you because their child misbehaves.  Chances are, so does yours! 


  • SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭


    Demon, I finds it utterly bewildering that you are 25, yet you seem to think you know all there is about raising childrenAnd how old are your children that you are allowing them to hitchhike home when they misbehave?  I am thoroughly confused. 


     


    Having a 1 year old and dealing with the challenges that come along with raising a child that age is completly different than having a child who is 2, 3, 4, 5, or 10.  It's easy to think you know all there is to know before you've walked in another's shoes!  New challenges come at each stage.  When my 4 year old was 1 and 2, he had NO angry or violent outbursts EVER, but when he turned 3 and the testesterone started pumping through his body, holy cow, that changed pretty quickly.  So you deal with issues as they arise.  You're no better than your neighbor whose child misbehaves in different ways than your own.  Who knows, maybe that child is acting up in that way for the first time? 


     


    Also, for everyone who is blaming the parent for every minor infraction committed by their child, are you serious?  You can't chalk it ALL up to nurture.  Nature plays a HUGE part too!  My three children are all so completely different and we relate with each one based on their individual needs and personalities.  So unless, you've raised someone else's child, judge them all you want, but it's fruitless and it's stupid to do so.  You never know what is truly going on there.  Kids listen sometimes and sometimes they dont!  The only thing you can judge to some extent is, is that parent being consistent with setting boundaries for their child, but even then, you can't get a true picture on unless you live with the person.


     


    I used to get holy hell from my husbands aunts and uncles every time we'd visit because my oldest, now 4, from age 1-2 1/2 would run around like a complete spaz, getting into EVERYTHING, and I'd be right next to him pulling things out of his hands and letting him know what he could and couldn't do.  He never hurt anyone.  He was never rude.  He never hit.  He never broke anything.  He was just wild and ALL OVER THE PLACE and it pissed them all off horribly.  Then, their child had a child, who is now 20 months old and he's a complete spaz, plus he is HORRIBLY violent and mean.  And now they are looking to me, the one who they judged and spoke harsly to, for validation on why their daughter's child behaves so horribly. 


     


    The point is, kids will be kids.  Be a good parent to your kids, set limits and boundaries and make sure they understand right from wrong.  Stop looking at someone else so you can label them inferior to you because their child misbehaves.  Chances are, so does yours! 




    ________________


     


    Did you even read this thread? I never said that my kids hitchhike home, that I'm some kind of all-knowing parenting authority or that I was looking to label anyone as inferior. If I did, please point out such posts and I'll apologize forthwith. Cuz none of that reflects reality or my personal views.

    "I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

     

    Let's be friends on MyFitnessPal!

  • Forgive me Demon, I did misread regarding the hitchhiking thing.  Somehow my mind replaced the word jaywalking with hitchhiking and I went a bit beserk.  You're right.  You never said that.


     


    There are a few posts of yours that did aggraviate me.


    For example, "ACH85, if you're running into traffic as a kid, there are a few problems. First, your parents haven't taught you it's a bad thing to do. Secondly, if you're young enough to do something that dumb, you shouldn't be out of your parents' sight. Either way, when a kid puts themselves in danger like that, it's a failing on the part of the parent."


    and "I feel very fortunate that my children are willing and intelligent enough to listen to me, and that I'm attentive enough to keep an eye on them when there are cars or what have you in the area."


     


    I take it personally when people automatically jump to blaming the parent for everything the child does.  Each child is his own person and makes his own decisions regardless of how well the parent has trained the child.   My oldest son has not stopped putting himself in harms way since he learned how to crawl.  He gets into an abnormal amount of very dangerous mischief.  My other son is nothing like this.  My oldest figured out how to climb out of his crib at 11 months old.  He started trying to plug chords into outlets at a year.  He learned how to turn door handles and open closed doors at 15 months old.  We installed those door handle covers and in the first day, he figured out how to work his way around them!  We bought and tried a new brand which he figured out within days.  He figured out how to pick locks a few months before his third birthday!  And he hates sleeping, so during "down times" he's working on mastering a new skill.  These are only a few examples.  I have had many oblivious strangers or even distant family members judge me for his behavior.  I am a very vigilent mother.  I am hands on with my kids.  I stay home with my kids and teach and train them constantly without the use of violence.  It infuriates me to no end when people, especially those with no kids, spend their time tearing apart and critiquing others parenting skills.  Granted, there are a lot of inept and terrible parents out there, but there are also kids with great parents who disobey sometimes.


     


    Anyway, I revoke my comments about you letting your kids hitchhike. 

  • SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭

    Eh, well, if my posts came off as elitist or somehow super harsh, I'm sorry. I do get riled up when I talk about this stuff and I could've worded things more gently. It isn't my intent to judge other parents, but to raise awareness about a practice I think is way too common and deleterious to a child's development. I'd much rather have a calm, rational conversation about the effects of spanking than to just shake my head and consider someone inferior for doing it. The latter simply isn't constructive. And lord knows I'm not a perfect parent. I make mistakes-- probably far more than I even realize. I hope my kids will be able to forgive me my imperfections.


     


    Anywho, I think I stated my case in this thread. If anyone disagrees, well, they're entitled to that disagreement.


    "I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

     

    Let's be friends on MyFitnessPal!

  • Ya know......, ah shit. Nevermind.
  • Dave RaelDave Rael
    edited April 2014

    wow.  i missed quite a conversation.  everything has mostly been said, but i want to add a bit:


     


    first, it's important to emphasize what noogis has already stated - we agree here more than we disagree and everyone in the conversation clearly has the best intentions and is looking for the best outcomes.  that said...


     


    i wholeheartedly reject the notion that children are not equals.  they are every bit as human as everyone else.  yes, they are immature and incapable of some actions.  equality does not refer to having the same capacity and the same capabilities.  saying that all men were created equal would be an obviously ludicrous proposition if it did (i submit jason miller and his physical feats as the clear evidence that we are not equally capable).  there is no such thing as equality if equality means we have the same competence.  equality means having the same rights of life and liberty.  equality means universal application of principle.  just as gravity and the needs for breathing and nourishment apply to all humans, so do moral principles.  kids can't drive because they are not capable of the act and of procuring a vehicle for themselves - not because they are of an unequal class to whom moral concerns are not equally applied.  morality is not morality if it's not universal (and i'd argue it's invalid (echoing stefan molyneux (the guy in the video from demon and my favorite philosopher)).  children are less-than-equal only in their capability and maturity, not in the application of human dignity.


     


    i find it preposterous for someone to say "it's not ok to hit me, but it's ok for me to hit."  (this is where i would usually go on a rant about government prohibiting theft but stealing via taxation and inflation; prohibiting murder, but deploying armies and drone strikes, etc. - but i'll try to refrain from too much of that.)


     


    i wholeheartedly reject the idea that your kids belong to you.  they are not "yours."  the children belong to themselves every bit as much as you belong to yourself.  you have been put in a position (by yourself) of being the caretaker of an asset you will return to its rightful owner when the owner is capable of taking full responsibility for that asset.  you are the manager of a trust set aside for a young person to access themselves.  you do not own that trust any more than some financial institution owns the assets in the accounts entrusted to it.  you have been employed to protect and grow it and deliver the resulting, improved asset at the end of the term of your employment while giving the rightful owner more and more control over time until it can be relinquished entirely.


     


    yes, you need to be a leader in your home and set an example for your kids and to help them make up for their deficiencies in development by taking care of things for them while you help them develop into an autonomous individual.  yes, that means setting course and offering correction to create the best human you can.  i like to look at my corrections as guidance, though, more than corrections.  humans need to decide for themselves who they want to be - i want them the look at me as a trusted advisor and a source of worthy experience and wisdom, not as an authority to fear.  i do not see obedience as a virtue.  kids who obey become adults who obey - is that what you want?


     


    if you coerce behaviors from someone via force, you are a bully.  it can be argued that it's good to be a bully under some circumstances.  i reject that argument and find it morally invalid, but it can be made and has been made here.  it cannot be argued, though, that it's not bullying.


     


    if you accept that you should not be hit by others, i don't see any way you can assert that it's ok for you to hit others.  asserting that someone else is not your equal is not only a very slippery slope, but offensive on its surface.


     


    i want to object also to the idea of public discipline.  i consider spanking unacceptable in general, but the assertion that doing it in front of a crowded church (or any group of people) is ok is even more extremely objectionable.  if your manager at your work has problems with the way you are conducting yourself and/or performing your duties and decided to make a public display of confronting you about it in front of others, my guess is that you (and by you, i mean anyone) would probably be offended and incensed by that.


     


    also, saying that spanking is not hitting is silly.  it's just a simple contradiction of fact.  of course it's hitting.  there can be disagreement on whether it's justified of justifiable of practical or effective or advisable or acceptable - but by definition it's hitting and i don't understand any way that can be argued.


     


    spanking to try to protect your kids is, in my mind, very much the same thing as a government putting people in jail for possessing a plant.  the reasoning is something like: "drugs are dangerous, so in order to protect you from drugs i will put you in a cage where you will be raped and hurt in unimaginable ways if you dare to possess something by which you could possibly hurt yourself).


     


    also, the efficacy of spanking to protect kids running out in the street is debatable.  kid x was spanked and also doesn't run out into street.  therefore spanking is most effective way to prevent kids from running into the street.  that's a jump i'm not willing to make.  my kids also don't run into the street.  (was easy with my girls, they just listened - the boy took a lot of conversations before it got through - he was kept out of situations where that would obviously be a problem until he got it).  they were not spanked.  which way is better?


  • StevoStevo Upgrade in Progress

    I'm not arguing one way or the other, but addressing this paragraph:


     


    "spanking to try to protect your kids is, in my mind, very much the same thing as a government putting people in jail for possessing a plant.  the reasoning is something like: "drugs are dangerous, so in order to protect you from drugs i will put you in a cage where you will be raped and hurt in unimaginable ways if you dare to possess something by which you could possibly hurt yourself)."


     


    To me the logic is, for example, say a 3 year old dashed out onto a road and you race after them. Fortunately they did not get hit by a car. The smacking is the (hopefully) heaviest message to say "never ever do that again! If you do, this is a taste of what will happen." Run out onto the road, get a smack.


    The smack is in place of the much worse punishment of being run over by a moving car which is far, far worse.


     


    Anyway, not arguing either way, I just disagree with your analogy here and thought I'd jump in. I am eagerly reading this thread and heavily pondering the best stance, as my daughter has just turned 2. She has been very well behaved until now, so it is good for me to figure this out.


  • Dave, you made some good points, but I agree with Stevo that your line of reasoning about spanking to protect children was a little off...  I don't personally spank because I believe it doesn't make sense.  I do have a friend who spanks her children and they are very fine, kind, well-adjusted and wonderful children, so I don't judge them.  I know she is calm and loving and her kids love her and I know she doesn't do it out of anger and she never does it publically.  Yet, I still choose not to spank my children because for us, it isn't right.


    That said, there are a few instances where a quick flick or smack to the hand is, in my opinion, absolutely necessary.  One example is touching a hot burner.  My kids get a smack on the hand when they reach up to touch the stove.  I've heard the argument made that you should let them touch the hot burner once so they never do it again.  I reject that and absolutely favor a small temporary sting to the hand that lasts 5 seconds max rather than a possible E.R. visit.  Heck, if my husband or friend reached to touch a hot burner, I'd smack their hand too to prevent a much worse injury.  Though, that's quite different than spanking.


    I absolutely agree with you about public shaming or "disciplne".  That sort of humiliation is one of the worst types of injury you can do to another person.  I would never shame my kids in front of others.  I believe that is wrong and cowardly.  "Do onto others as you would like them to do unto you," works pretty well at determining if something is acceptable or not. 


  • @stevo - i understand that the intent is to prevent that which harms.  the intent is to limit what one can do for their own good.  the intent is protection.  i do not dispute that.  i think the analogy still holds perfectly, though.  in fact, that's why i think the analogy is appropriate.  government intends (at least the stated intent is) to protect citizens from their own behaviors that can be self-destructive.  parents intend to protect children from their own behaviors that can be self-destructive.  government does that via violent aggression.  parents (who spank) do that via violent aggression.  not seeing how the analogy breaks down here.


     


    in both cases, the violent aggression is not a defensive response to aggression, but the initiation of force.  there is certainly a stress response in seeing one's own offspring putting themselves in danger and it is natural to want to respond with protection, but there was no aggression on the part of the kid toward the parent.  i'm not saying that's not appropriate to want to defend your kids.  if my kid ran out in the street, i would be in a hurry to help him get out of danger.  any parent (and many strangers) would.  i am not saying that it's not good and appropriate to teach your kids to stay out of the street, but that spanking isn't what teaches that.  aggression teaches kids to fear and obey authority figures, not to learn why it is important to behave in a way that protects your own life.  aggression tells kids not that they're part of a team with the survival and success of the whole team on the minds of all involved, but that they are dealing with a bully and when you are in a situation with a bully against which you are powerless to defend, you reluctantly comply.  i do not want the reluctant compliance of my children.  i want to convince them of what is important and demonstrate why it is important.  i don't want to teach them respect, i want to earn their respect.


     


    yes, the potential consequences of running out in the street are potentially greater than those of spanking.  it could be argued, though, that a lifetime of fear of authority and timidity in the face of managers in jobs and such is a dire consequence.  more importantly, i dispute that spanking is the most effective way to teach the lessons required for safety.  establishing a trusting relationship where your opinion is valued is much better.  it's also harder to accomplish and requires more commitment and effort (which is why demon mentioned agression as "lazy parenting").

     


    if i wander into the street in a gluten-induced daze and you pull me to safety, i will thank you.  if you hit me to try to teach me not to do it again, i will learn not that eating wheat is bad, but that you are a jerk (one who saved my life, but a jerk nonetheless) and that i should respond with violence to defend myself from your violence.


     


    if you had argued that my example is too extreme and that the damage of being put into prison with rapists has clearly harmful effects and that it is less obviously so with spanking, i'd concede that point.  other than that, though, i think the comparison is valid and instructive.  aggression is aggression, even when done with good intentions toward the victim.


     


    @healthymom,


    i'm glad you are making the choice not to use aggression.  i agree with that choice (obviously) and celebrate it.  "flick of the hand" sounds to me more like a defensive move to avert a situation than a punishment intended to inflict pain and fear to "teach a lesson."  if i'm interpreting that correctly, i do not disagree.


     


    as far as your friend, i believe the children would be better off without the spanking and that it is damaging in the long run.  just like the health of the mind and body, the development of children into adults is so complex and with so many variables that outcomes are difficult to predict without careful study to isolate certain variables.  it is possible for great outcomes with some conditions being less than optimal.  that doesn't make it optimal.  spanking is also not consistent with the golden rule (despite my rejection of all religion, that wisdom attributed to jesus is a gem) and with the universality of principle.  thank you for bringing up the applicability of the golden rule here.

  • SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭

    if i wander into the street in a gluten-induced daze...


    _________


     


    I can't tell you how many times I've done this over the years!

    "I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

     

    Let's be friends on MyFitnessPal!

  • StevoStevo Upgrade in Progress

    I think my disagreement came from seeing your argument as "possessing a plant" i.e. being hit by a car vs "being put in prison with rapists" i.e. being spanked. 


  • When I'm not trolling the internet my job is safety inspections, mostly rigging at heights. And I can tell you right now, nowhere in any industry is it acceptable to use violence, hit or "spank" anyone for doing anything unsafe. The NUMBER ONE way to prevent accidents is education. If someone does something unsafe they are educated on the hazards, if they continue to be unsafe and the education has been reiterated yet they are unable to follow it, they will be removed from a position of being able to act unsafely (fired or transferred). Generally education is all that is needed, and once people are made aware of the dangers they will follow the education, because self preservation is pretty strong with us humans, and no one wants to die or be horribly maimed.


     


    Kids are no different, you educate them on the dangers, they certainly don't enjoy being hurt. If they are unable to understand or follow the education (generally because they are too young to understand) then you remove them from the situation until they can comprehend. Yes, we can train children like animals and make them afraid of doing something, hit them for running into the street, that will solve the problem usually of them running into the street while you're looking. We can do a simple thought experiment here, kid runs into empty street, (or one with cars) while parent is watching and the parent hits them, lesson learned is next time run into the street when the parent isn't looking, after all the car did not hurt them. Kid runs into street and car hits them, lesson learned is don't run into street while cars are coming... Obviously that's a potentially hazardous way to learn the lesson, so let's teach the dangers so they can be recognized before they have to be learned. 


     


    It's like back on the job site safety, I promise you anyone that has ever fallen from heights (and survived) make damn sure that doesn't happen again, and will take any safety precaution necessary.


     


    Below is a list of examples of mostly preventable accidents that could have been prevented with following proper safety training and instructions. They list some pretty horrible ways to die, I'm sure no one wanted that to happen to them, and it happening certainly wasn't from a lack of being "spanked".


     


    https://www.osha.gov/dep/fatcat/fy14_federal-state_summaries.pdf


     



    The First Real-Time Study of Parents Spanking Their Kids  -


  • Exactly Desp.

    Hitting someone is disempowering

    Educating someone is empowering.

    The two cannot be the same.


    Disempowering makes people into herd animals.

    Empowering teaches them to think critically, and to stand up for themselves and what they believe in. Hitting doesn't make kids tougher, it makes them weaker. Maybe they will grow up and be more of a jerk, but still they will be weaker. I know lots of tough guys who were hit as kids, and they are the first to crumble under pressure. Usually the tougher they act the weaker they are.


    We always complain about stupid American sheep. Well that is learned behavior. It starts with hitting, and continues through mandatory public school, culminating as life as a drone worker and media slave.
  • SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭
    edited May 2014

    I just wanted to update everyone on my parenting situation.


     


    Some kid-- not mine, about five years old-- ran into traffic while I was headed to the grocery store yesterday. I decided to try out a new parenting technique on this child, to see if I couldn't rescue him from peril. Sprinting towards him, I grabbed him by the hair and, when we were clear of the vehicles, curb-stomped his ass. A bunch of cops were in the area, shooting their guns into the air and sipping 40's, and they all came by to give me high-fives for what they called "a courageous, virtuous act". For saving her son, the boy's mother-- a well-endowed single mother whose husband had been the marine who'd shot Bin Laden in the face-- dropped to her knees, wiped the tears from her burgeoning bust and attempted to fellate me. I politely refused her, as I am a married man, but allowed her a look at my prodigious organ so that she might pleasure herself in a steamy reminisce each night before uttering her prayers to the Lord. A bald eagle then swooped in and clawed at the boy's bloodied shirt, screeching my praises for having exercised my biblical rights. The president himself, after dispatching a team of fighter jets armed with heart-shaped fireworks, called to congratulate me. He then launched what the New York Times went on to call "The Show of the Century", commanding the jets to fire salvo after salvo of beautiful, patriotic fire into the skies in my honor. The fireworks were made in the United States.


     


    And you know what? It worked. The doctors aren't sure if the boy will ever walk again. Do you know what that means? It means that I may have saved him from ever being hit by a car-- for the rest of his life. He'll have no reason to cross the street now, seeing as he's likely to remain in a semi-vegetative state at the Children's Hospital. For his obedience, I arranged for a troupe of clowns to perform a show in his hospital room. I paid them in American dollars and, after we joined hands and thanked our Lord and Savior that Sharia law has not yet come to pass in our Great Nation, they went on to perform their spirited, thoroughly patriotic act to rip-roarious applause from the multi-ethnic hospital staff.


     


    Thanks, guys.


    "I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

     

    Let's be friends on MyFitnessPal!

  • Danno RedDanno Red Practical Man
    edited May 2014

    Well, I'm glad you're seeing the benefits of corporal punishment...now you're in a busty gal's spank bank for life! And, the next worst thing than spanking a kid is hitting a cripple so maybe if that young chap someday rolls out into traffic like Christopher Reeves you (or a thoughtful soul like me) will be there to hit him and remind him of the perils of not looking both ways! But, by then his mom's rack will be reduced to sad beaver tails hanging to her knees. Timing is everything!


  • I'd much rather have a parent that lovingly spanks than a violent aggressor who talks about eating dinner out of grandpa's skull or curb stomping a 5 year old.  For a non-violent soul, you sure have more anger and violence emanating from your posts than anybody else.  Yelling, screaming, or attempting to terrify a small child with violent stories is far more damaging than a thoughtfully directed swat here or there.  Though I don't like spanking, all spanking is not created equal.  There's a difference between parents taking out their anger or aggression on their children by hitting them, a parent who beats their child in a drunken rage, or a parent who occasionally swats a child on the bottom followed by a two-sided discussion.  Lumping all 3 into the same category makes the speaker sound really ignorant and dumb.


  • ACH85ACH85 ✭✭

    a violent aggressor who talks about eating dinner out of grandpa's skull or curb stomping a 5 year old



     


    ----


     


    He's a demon, what can you do?


     


    Since this thread has clearly devolved, I feel like it's no longer detrimental to point out that the bulletproof perspective on spanking is it's only OK occasionally. Specifically, the child's age (in months) minus 7, divided by four, is the minimum number of days between spankings. 


     


    That's what that equation was about, right?


  • NoogisNoogis
    edited May 2014

    There is of course a difference. That doesn't mean that one is right and one is wrong. 


     


    Hitting my wife out of anger, and hitting her to teach her a lesson might be distinct, but either way isn't right. Kids aren't stupid, in fact, they learn at a rate much faster than adults. What they lack is experience. 


    So we can teach them that 


    A. An authority figure that you trust will hit you if you do wrong. Just like the electrodes on a rat in a maze, or a dinner bell for a dog, it imprints obedience to an authority figure based on punishment.


    B. Mutual respect. You can teach a kid, who's brain is a sponge, in a non violent, non punishment based way. 


     


    C. I am about done refuting, "well what if they run into the street" or beating kids while you are drunk is different!!" with statistics, facts, and ideas on non violence that can't really be argued in any sane way. Hitting people (kids are people) to get what you want is never ok.


     


    Lets review.


    Is hitting people outside of self defense ok? No.


    Are Kids people? Yes


    Is having a philosophy about something valid if you validate breaking that philosophy based on something that makes no sense? No.


     


     


    No parent wants to be wrong, or think they have messed up their kids. The fact is, if they are older, and turned out fine then awesome! If they are young, its not too late. Data shows that the problems that come from hitting can be reversed.


     


    I get the same irrational arguments from parents who feed their kids crap. They don't want to be wrong, and most do what they think is right.


     


    I am not perfect, Im sure I screw up things too. But I keep an open mind and will do a 180 if I find data that shows Im headed in the wrong direction.


     


     


    "




     There's a difference between parents taking out their anger or aggression on their children by hitting them, a parent who beats their child in a drunken rage, or a parent who occasionally swats a child on the bottom followed by a two-sided discussion.




    "


  • SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭

    Lets review.

    Is hitting people outside of self defense ok? No.


    Are Kids people? Yes




    __________


     


    It is literally this simple.


     


    This whole thing seems to break down for some people around the second question, though. Because they don't consider their children full-fledged human beings. They're humans who have to "graduate" to full person status. Children are treated as objects. As possessions. "MY kids do what I say, because they're MINE."


     


    You know, this non-spanking stance is about being morally consistent for me. Could I get away with very occasionally spanking my kids, like Dan Ayd or Healthymom or whatever? Possibly. But that isn't the point.




    I'd much rather have a parent that lovingly spanks than a violent aggressor who talks about eating dinner out of grandpa's skull or curb stomping a 5 year old.  For a non-violent soul, you sure have more anger and violence emanating from your posts than anybody else.  Yelling, screaming, or attempting to terrify a small child with violent stories is far more damaging than a thoughtfully directed swat here or there.  Though I don't like spanking, all spanking is not created equal.  There's a difference between parents taking out their anger or aggression on their children by hitting them, a parent who beats their child in a drunken rage, or a parent who occasionally swats a child on the bottom followed by a two-sided discussion.  Lumping all 3 into the same category makes the speaker sound really ignorant and dumb.




    __________


     


    Dude. I posted a hyper-violent fictionalized account on this here forum. I certainly hope that anyone who reads it realizes it's a joke. But what the hell makes you think I'm yelling, screaming or sharing violent stories with my kids? Lol. This is ridiculous. You're nit-picking my responses for instances of hyperbole or sarcasm, but not addressing the the actual points being made in the other posts. Yes-- there's a difference between the horrific and overblown violence in such stories and smacking your kid in the hand for some trespass. Your post here is almost as pointless as my own. I mean, except for that part with the bald eagle. That was totally legit. Step up your game.


     


    You say that you "Don't like spanking", healthymom. Why is that?

    "I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

     

    Let's be friends on MyFitnessPal!

  • SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭

    Also "Lovingly spanking". Wow. An oxymoron, if I've ever heard one.


    "I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

     

    Let's be friends on MyFitnessPal!



  • ----


     


    He's a demon, what can you do?


     


    Since this thread has clearly devolved, I feel like it's no longer detrimental to point out that the bulletproof perspective on spanking is it's only OK occasionally. Specifically, the child's age (in months) minus 7, divided by four, is the minimum number of days between spankings. 


     


    That's what that equation was about, right?




     


     




     


    i wet myself reading this one.  thanks for that.

  • the wisdom flows from noogis like the grass-fed butter from dave asprey's pores.


     


    the simplification of the problem of to the moral questions he proposed is really the extent of the entire discussion.


     


    while demon's story was mildly entertaining (i do see that fiction is in your blood), it did nothing for the conversation, but this clearly identifies the difference of opinion:


     


    This whole thing seems to break down for some people around the second question, though. Because they don't consider their children full-fledged human beings. They're humans who have to "graduate" to full person status. Children are treated as objects. As possessions. "MY kids do what I say, because they're MINE."

     



     




    that's it - are kids people or not?  do they deserve the same courtesy you'd give a total stranger or not?

  • Danno RedDanno Red Practical Man
    edited May 2014
    Still beating this dead horse eh? More lousy studies...is your goal to criminalize spanking? It'd be nice if there was a study looking at single use spanks vs the extreme violence your "experts" discuss...11 strikes per episode, 18 episodes per week, on children as young 7 mos and as old as 18 years is a clear case of lazy parents abusing children. So, you're citing bad studies to prove your point--not a good debate practice. And as such you're throwing out the baby (single use spank w verbal discussion follow up) w the bath water (all spanking). Your broad application of absolutism is a slippery, dangerous slope to play on...and ignoring nuance is short sighted behavior because there's a lot of value in the gray area in between your black and white extremes. And in this you're shorting your kids the ability to learn how to adapt and judge a dynamic universe.
Sign In or Register to comment.