Arterial Plaque Changes Tested On Bp Diet

I have read a load of information on MCT oil supplementation lately. Scientific tests on mice, Apes, humans, forum posts of many people. 


Just to determine what it can do and what it has done to people in a long-run. 


Here's what I have found: 


1. Mood and brain improvements. 


2. Testosterone and hormone boost.


3. 90 percent experienced weight loss (due to testosterone I guess - cause it is usually reported by men, whie many women struggle)


4. Blood lipid profile is changed drastically by LDL going over 200 for so many people.


 


Also I have found a story of a korean professor who has died of a heart attack on december 2013 and just months before that he reported how supplementing with coconut oil and mct has worsened his health in a year, resulting in 80-95 percent artery clogs. 


Since he is a bit famous person and a doctor his death is reported online by not-MCT marketed websites - so it is a fact.


Robert K. Su is his name - you can google him. 


http://www.carbohydratescankill.com/forums/general-questions/negative-about-coconut-oil/page-3 is the forum where he wrote what starting supplementing with coconut oil did to his health which he said started to worsen since he started taking it in 2009.


 


So my question to all BP practitioners is - who of you has done ultrasound artery scan or other scans to determine actual percentage of plaque build up in artery linings?


This is I would say if not the most important subject to research about MCT, cause LDL is known to cause plaque build up, and almost inevibly your LDL doubles on MCT oil. So please share facts, as any kind of short-term MCT energy benefits are valuable only if it doesn't clog arteries. 


I would also encourage long-term BP practitioners to go for artery scan if it is cheap for you to do so - as enthusiasm of this forum is wonderful, however we absolutely need to be informed of its actual eefect on artery health. 


 


 


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Comments

  • You should read this:


     


    http://www.jlr.org/content/25/13/1570.full.pdf


     


    It is a little more scientific than your loosely connected string of anecdotes.




  • You should read this:


     


    http://www.jlr.org/content/25/13/1570.full.pdf


     


    It is a little more scientific than your loosely connected string of anecdotes.




     can somebody sum this up?!

  • DManDMan Master of Arts ✭✭✭

    Hey,


    my dietitian told me that MCT in high dosages can brake your arteries. Or at least it can loosen the walls of your arteries and this is why you can't buy it in the super market (here in GER). On the other hand we all know that we are supposed to use it in moderation. I have like 2 tbsp per day.

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  • Jason HooperJason Hooper ✭✭✭
    edited July 2014
    The first animal known to express HMG1 was C. auratus, an ancestor of the modern day goldfish.  This gave rise to an enormous evolutionary advantage because the animal no longer had to derive its cholesterol from dietary sources and could manufacture it on its own.

     


     

    Every living animal is now capable of creating its own cholesterol.  It is a vital substance serving several critical biological functions.

     

    Fortunately for us humans, we have something called the mevalonic pathway.  This is how we synthesize cholesterol and it has nothing to do with coconuts, or medium chain triglycerides.  It has everything to do with the expression of a gene called HMCGR.  When there is not enough cholesterol in the plasma, HMCGR is expressed creating the enzyme HMG-CoA reductase.  The production of cholesterol inhibits HMCGR.  Most of this metabolic activity happens in the liver, but every cell in the body is capable of expressing HMCGR.

     

    To summarize: coconut oil, or medium chain triglycerides are not involved in rate limiting de novo cholesterol synthesis.

     

    If you want to create an argument for dietary impact on arteriosclerosis, look towards sugar and not MCTs.  There are actually academic sources that you can use instead of hearsay from German dietitians.



  •  


    The first animal known to express HMG1 was C. auratus, an ancestor of the modern day goldfish.  This gave rise to an enormous evolutionary advantage because the animal no longer had to derive its cholesterol from dietary sources and could manufacture it on its own.

     


     

    Every living animal is now capable of creating its own cholesterol.  It is a vital substance serving several critical biological functions.

     

    Fortunately for us humans, we have something called the mevalonic pathway.  This is how we synthesize cholesterol and it has nothing to do with coconuts, or medium chain triglycerides.  It has everything to do with the expression of a gene called HMCGR.  When there is not enough cholesterol in the plasma, HMCGR is expressed creating the enzyme HMG-CoA reductase.  The production of cholesterol inhibits HMCGR.  Most of this metabolic activity happens in the liver, but every cell in the body is capable of expressing HMCGR.

     

    To summarize: coconut oil, or medium chain triglycerides are not involved in rate limiting de novo cholesterol synthesis.

     

    If you want to create an argument for dietary impact on arteriosclerosis, look towards sugar and not MCTs.  There are actually academic sources that you can use instead of hearsay from German dietitians.

     




    Mr.X a fact that a human body synthesizes cholesterol is well known to me as to most of the forum readers. However your previously mentioned article is more focused on transformation of VLDL into LDL and formation of LDL particles, which is of high scientific interest of course, but has nothing to do with the answer to the question - Does supplementing MCT oil, causing surely a spike in LDL - no doubt of that despite it is produced in the body - not ingested, result in growth of artery plaque?


     


    Anecdotes are different from facts. In fact, just on this forum there are about 20 or more posts of people whose LDL went 100 points up as a result of MCT supplementation. YES, You are right it is not ingested, it is produced in the human liver. However, I would like to get medical test results showing that LDL spike as a result of MCT supplementation A. increases arterial plaque. B. Does not affect growth or regression of AP C. Induces regression of arterial plaque.


     


    Talks and disputes are cheap. Facts speak for themselves. Thank you for the input. Still hope someone has done or will done the tests soon and share

  • Jason HooperJason Hooper ✭✭✭
    edited July 2014
    I am sorry about your Korean friend, but his death does not adequately substantiate that our current working model of cholesterol synthesis is wrong.

     

    Some people on the forum had a positive gain in cholesterol, some have gone down.  In any case, how do you logically attribute that to their MCT consumption?  Forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but your correlation is on par with scattering chicken bones and praying to Mounanchou.

  • I just wanted to highlight that you talk about different things. Sometimes about LDL going up and then about cholesterol. These are two different things.


    LDL is a transporter protein in the blood. Cholesterol is a lipid that acts as precousor to many hormones. For instant, when UV light hits the skin cholesterol is converted to the hormone "vitamin D".


    Regarding heart health, it's high levels of a sub group of LDL that is a concern.

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  • thank you biochemist, I am raising concern about raising LDL particles in the vast majority of MCT users. As it is attributed to depositing plaque behind arterial walls. Cholesterol has nothing to do with it indeed.


     


    Still hope someone can post his scan results.


  • Sergei, its a relevant question. To my knowledge it has not been studied so it would be interesting get feedback from the BP community.

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  • Since when is diet the only factor that contributes to the likelihood of a person having a heart attack or not?


  • oh come on j-rock, everything you do impacts you risk of having a heart attack or not. Exercise lowers it, sedentary lifestyle does. Sugar increases it, and Damn sure 300 LDL in your blood Can much likely increase you heart risk factor more than anything in the world. 


     


    Instead of trying to suppress a critical thought here, run for a test and prove the opposite




  • oh come on j-rock, everything you do impacts you risk of having a heart attack or not. Exercise lowers it, sedentary lifestyle does. Sugar increases it, and Damn sure 300 LDL in your blood Can much likely increase you heart risk factor more than anything in the world. 


     


    Instead of trying to suppress a critical thought here, run for a test and prove the opposite






     


    I'm not trying to suppress anything. I'm trying to say that other factors are involved, genetics being a big one. You're the one suppressing this to blaming diet only as the culprit.

  • edited July 2014

    well i am trying to make up for a lack of clinical studies - if someone goes for a test and it shows say 0 or 10 percent, after that person has been supplementing with MCT for a year say, then you could say MCT doesn't affect Arterial plaque directly. If that someone is 30 years old however and the scan shows 50 percent or more - than there is something to think about.


    The purpose of my question is to address the weakest side of MCT and its possible future implications on its consumers health, as there is no doubt it fuels the body with energy and i have tryed it on myself - and everybody reports it. Trying to use it for a year or 2 is something I would do if I know it is safe. 


     


    It is like in Arnold times everyone took steroids, cause they built muscles, and after 5-10 years those guys switched to Viagra cause their other muscle didn't work due to their lack of experimental knowledge about longterm steroid effect.


     


    Genetics and other factors are play a  huge role as well, but like in case with steroids, if the effect of high LDL is too drastic - then no genetics will help.


    Let us see, maybe someone has had a test done


  • Jason HooperJason Hooper ✭✭✭
    edited July 2014

    We have come full circle already.  The subgroup of LDL that you are referring to is vLDL, or very low density lipoprotein.  Go back and read my very first post in this thread, click on the link, and read the article.


     


    Sergei's argument is as follows:


     


    A Korean professor experimented with coconut and MCT oil for four years and died of a heart attack; therefore anyone who eats coconut and MCT oil is at risk of a heart attack.


     


    I could make a similar argument:


     


    An Iranian truck driver began an exercise routine that involved jumping jacks.  After four years of the routine, he developed colon cancer; therefore anyone who does jumping jacks is at risk of colon cancer.


     


    This device is similar to that of the Barnum effect and serves purely as a means of falsity.


     


    It is highly unlikely that a community of bio-hackers who quantify large amounts of biometric data are going to have arteriolosclerosis and not know it.  There are few people here who do not have regular blood work done and there are several biomarkers that are much stronger indicators than plasma LDL cholesterol levels.


     


    When the IL-18 signaling pathway is cytokines are released.  With out this signal, cholesterol will never be deposited in the arteries.  Show me one shred of scientific evidence (not another anecdote) that show that coconut oil, or MCT oil activates the IL-18 signaling pathway.


  • What does activate that pathway?
  • edited July 2014


    We have come full circle already.  The subgroup of LDL that you are referring to is vLDL, or very low density lipoprotein.  Go back and read my very first post in this thread, click on the link, and read the article.


     


    Sergei's argument is as follows:


     


    A Korean professor experimented with coconut and MCT oil for four years and died of a heart attack; therefore anyone who eats coconut and MCT oil is at risk of a heart attack.


     


    I could make a similar argument:


     


    An Iranian truck driver began an exercise routine that involved jumping jacks.  After four years of the routine, he developed colon cancer; therefore anyone who does jumping jacks is at risk of colon cancer.


     


    This device is similar to that of the Barnum effect and serves purely as a means of falsity.


     


    It is highly unlikely that a community of bio-hackers who quantify large amounts of biometric data are going to have arteriolosclerosis and not know it.  There are few people here who do not have regular blood work done and there are several biomarkers that are much stronger indicators than plasma LDL cholesterol levels.


     


    When the IL-18 signaling pathway is cytokines are released.  With out this signal, cholesterol will never be deposited in the arteries.  Show me one shred of scientific evidence (not another anecdote) that show that coconut oil, or MCT oil activates the IL-18 signaling pathway.




    i am down to earth person - i will never see that il-18 myself - unless you were talking about an airplane model.


    where is the proof that il-18 is the only initiator of LDL particles entering the macrophages? I don't understand why are you taking sides in this discussion being strongly on MCT not affecting artery clogging at all. As far as we know there are 3 possible effects it can have. 


    If a community of biohackers are doing all of those blood tests - then why not go for the test which would actually show something substancial about your body function? Like I would not care at all about my HDL/LDL and what soever ratio and particles if there wasn't tons of evidence they impact artery plaque formation. 


     


    Mr X - wouldn't you want to find out the results youself and be happy that your favourite product has no side-effects, if you are so sure it is safe?


     


    Do you realize that barnum effect example is BS - cause nearly every doctor in the world will tell you that LDL count and risk of heart attack are more related than jumping jacks and morning hangover?


  • which biomarkers in the blood test are better predictors of artery health? I don't understand why looking into the artery actually is worse than any other tests?


  • I am not sure how it works in every country, but in the States, to qualify for an EBCT (Electron-Beam Computed Tomography) test, one needs to exhibit multiple high risk factors for heart disease.  The test is also not covered by insurance and is very expensive.  This is why I do not run out and get a heart scan every time someone come on the Bulletproof forums and start warning us about our divergence from the FDA food pyramid.

     

    According to the CDC (Center for Disease Control) a standard blood screen for LDL, HDL, and total cholesterol only predict accurately predict eleven percent of future heart disease cases.  A C reactive protein test proves to be six times more accurate and when combined with blood pressure, and family history, we are up to eighty-eight percent.

     

    This is because even the LDL-C (or vLDL) alone is not the leading contributing factor in heart disease.  When the body experiences inflammation, the body's immune system is activated and responds by creating very small proteins to repair the damage.  These proteins bind to lipoproteins and patch the site of injury.  So, even if your hypothesis is correct (which I can assure you, it is not) the rise in cholesterol alone is not enough to cause arterial plaque.

     

    The liver creates the vast majority of cholesterol in the body (of all types).  Even with a low fat diet, daily cardiovascular exercise, and statins (none of which I recommend), it is impossible to avoid.  The factor that is directly inside of your control is your inflammatory response.  Avoid toxins, oxidized fats, floss regularly, get good sleep, and above all, learn to control your stress levels.

  • you know i will research more about those LDL-C particles tomorrow, if it is them only causing plaque - then i guess you might be right. You said you didn't recommend exercise, why not? I exercise - half- to an hour a day and feel tremendous - the whole day after, no diet has made me feel that good. 


  • still waiting for someone to post their arterial scan - never give a hope lol


  • I have actually found one guy who managed to supplement his MCT with some minerals - and his LDL are within normal range - so if he reveals his secrets I will share


  • DManDMan Master of Arts ✭✭✭

    Well I care about what auf random "german" dietitian says. Why? Because even Dave asprey mentioned several times in his podcast and his website that one shouldn't consume too much of it. even in the recipe for bpc it goes 2tbsp butter for every 1tbsp of mct.


     


    Btw yes there is good scientific research but some negative as well.


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10876103


     


    I am one of the guys whos ldl went way up while hdl went down on bp diet. So I went to the doctors and asked them instead of listening to what "some random guy from the Internet" says. I got some tests done and I have a broken fat metabolism. On a ketogenic diet blood lipids should be great. They sure aren't for me. This is why I started taking epa dha in order to raise hdl. The ldl is not that important since we all know by now that it changes to the large fluffy particles... This is also a reason why I don't eat beef and eggs all day but sardines and nuts too... 


     


    There are a few possible reasons why my hdl is low. Maybe it has something to do with my autoimmune conditions or my adrenals because cortisol is made from cholesterol.


     


    Regards


    "Some random german guy."


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  • Well I care about what auf random "german" dietitian says. Why? Because even Dave asprey mentioned several times in his podcast and his website that one shouldn't consume too much of it. even in the recipe for bpc it goes 2tbsp butter for every 1tbsp of mct.


     


    Btw yes there is good scientific research but some negative as well.


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10876103


     


    I am one of the guys whos ldl went way up while hdl went down on bp diet. So I went to the doctors and asked them instead of listening to what "some random guy from the Internet" says. I got some tests done and I have a broken fat metabolism. On a ketogenic diet blood lipids should be great. They sure aren't for me. This is why I started taking epa dha in order to raise hdl. The ldl is not that important since we all know by now that it changes to the large fluffy particles... This is also a reason why I don't eat beef and eggs all day but sardines and nuts too... 


     


    There are a few possible reasons why my hdl is low. Maybe it has something to do with my autoimmune conditions or my adrenals because cortisol is made from cholesterol.


     


    Regards


    "Some random german guy."




     


    Sorry if I didn´t get it, but are you talking about yourself? If so, what was that test the doc ordered that showed you had a broken fat metabolism?

  • dazdaz today is a good day ✭✭✭
    edited July 2014

    I am far from an expert on this (so pls excuse my terminology here),

    But could the high LDL thing in some BP'ers be related to the Apolipoprotein E (ApoE) genotype.

    People with one or two apo E4 alleles may end up with a higher LDL when consuming fats (saturated fats?) compared with non 'e4'ers'.


    { a few refs: #1 #2 #3(pdf) }


    & if these 'e4' people are male and consume alcohol as well, things may be worse;
    "...for men with the E2 genotype, alcohol consumption significantly decreases LDL cholesterol. For men with the E4 genotype, alcohol consumption significantly increases LDL cholesterol. No significant effects were observed in women". Source


    fake it till you make it

  • DManDMan Master of Arts ✭✭✭
    edited July 2014

    @DagothUr


    Yes I was talking about myself. It was an answer to one of the first posts in this topic....


     


    Well I went to the best doctors I could find in my home town and told them my story and that I want to get tested for everything and that I don't care about money. :D


     


    But from what I read on the internet I think it means that have low stomach acid. It could also mean that you are not producing enough digestive enzymes. All that can be tested via stool sample.


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  • Well I care about what auf random "german" dietitian says. Why? Because even Dave asprey mentioned several times in his podcast and his website that one shouldn't consume too much of it. even in the recipe for bpc it goes 2tbsp butter for every 1tbsp of mct.


     


    Btw yes there is good scientific research but some negative as well.


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10876103


     


    I am one of the guys whos ldl went way up while hdl went down on bp diet. So I went to the doctors and asked them instead of listening to what "some random guy from the Internet" says. I got some tests done and I have a broken fat metabolism. On a ketogenic diet blood lipids should be great. They sure aren't for me. This is why I started taking epa dha in order to raise hdl. The ldl is not that important since we all know by now that it changes to the large fluffy particles... This is also a reason why I don't eat beef and eggs all day but sardines and nuts too... 


     


    There are a few possible reasons why my hdl is low. Maybe it has something to do with my autoimmune conditions or my adrenals because cortisol is made from cholesterol.


     


    Regards


    "Some random german guy."




    awesome - now we have a study of lipid profiles - so i didn't even  have to collect all the forum tests.


    That is why I am still hoping there is someone who has looked into his arteries to determine how clogged they are and if they are at all.


    Love Germans - every German guy I met loved accuracy. And that is what i need in this thread - an accurate machine reading of Crap deposit profile of a long-term MCT user.

  • At least we are looking at scientific research now - that is good.  Now we can look at it critically.


     


    In the study referenced, the participants were all endurance athletes on a low fat diet.  The total cholesterol levels were elevated in both the placebo and the MCT group and the difference between the two groups was only 7 mg/dL.  This small difference is most likely the result of postprandial thermogenesis.


     


    According to the study, "blood lipids remained within desirable ranges established by the National Cholesterol Education Program.


     


    Here is a different study:


     


    http://jn.nutrition.org/content/133/6/1815.short


     


    This looks at lipid profiles in non-endurance athletes who getting roughly forty percent of their daily calories with fat (including the MCT oil in the experiment.)  The participants taking MCT oil had lower total triglycerides at the end of the study than those taking olive oil (by eighteen percent).


     


    As I stated before, there are environmental factors that will raise and lower your cholesterol, but without significant inflammatory markers, they are harmless.


     


    I am a thirty-four year old male with a decent fitness level.  My total cholesterol is below 150 mg/dL, my total LDL is under 100 mg/dL, and my CRP spectrum is less than 1 mg/dL.  I have been consuming roughly 30ml of MCT oil each day for the last two years or so.  If you pay for my heart scan, I will get one as soon as I can be scheduled and post my results the day of my procedure.  Sound good?


  • http://www.nbcnews.com/id/35058896/ns/health-heart_health/t/bad-cholesterol-its-not-what-you-think/


     


    a modern study advocating mct oils as the ones ccausing Large LDL particles to raise instead excessive carbs intake leading to small ldl increase. 


     


    so i guess scientifically - MCTs can be safe. However want an artery scan still -to be sure


  • how much is it where you live?


  • DManDMan Master of Arts ✭✭✭

    May you be well, may you be happy, may you be healthy, may you be loved.

    How much to eat:
    advanced | How to train: bulletproof training | HRV: HRV FOR TRAINING HRV BASICS What Affects HRV | Brain  & Memory dual n back training advanced training

     

     

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