Dual N Back Debunked?

In the Longecity forums,  a few posters there mentioned that Dual N Back doesnt increase working memory,  fluid intelligence,  and memory.   


 


 


I thought for sure that it did but they are sure that it doesnt work and it was proven to not work.  I didnt research the matter on the studies that said to debunked the Dual N Back...I just found one below.    


 


Anybody has any further information on this,   that will suck monkey butt since I did train on it and hoped that it did increase intelligence.


 


 


http://cognitivefun.net/talk/post/36534


Comments

  • edited September 2014

    Things coulda been worse.


  • I invite you to test it yourself instead and decide. I'd also go over the supposed studies and look at the data not just their conclusions. as well as how the studies were structured and conducted. Then I'd still test it myself.


    Biggest takeaway after several years as a hardcore biohacker: think long-term. Focus on health first before adding in boosters. It works a lot better.
  • I'm pretty sure there's more data..showing it DOES in fact work, than the data showing it does not work. Ignoring that this study is seven years old, all you have to do is try the game and see lol..


    I tried it for the first time..did horrible..second and third time..slightly better..still in the thirty range. 4,5,6,7 Hit 75% and by the tenth time I hit 100% and went to the next level. Then I hit the next two levels in about 5-6 games. So if it doesn't work, I have amazing luck


    Fiction is the Truth inside the Lie

     

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  • Referring to the post above:


     


    Indeed, anyone who claims applicable intelligence can't be raised definitely hasn't tried much. My intelligence has risen a ridiculous amount in the last 3 years alone. And it's not just from dual-n-back or other brain tasks alone. There are many stimuli for such a change.


    Biggest takeaway after several years as a hardcore biohacker: think long-term. Focus on health first before adding in boosters. It works a lot better.
  • genao87genao87 ✭✭
    edited September 2014


    I'm pretty sure there's more data..showing it DOES in fact work, than the data showing it does not work. Ignoring that this study is seven years old, all you have to do is try the game and see lol..


    I tried it for the first time..did horrible..second and third time..slightly better..still in the thirty range. 4,5,6,7 Hit 75% and by the tenth time I hit 100% and went to the next level. Then I hit the next two levels in about 5-6 games. So if it doesn't work, I have amazing luck




     


    that is just on the game!  you can become an expert in brain games but not received any enhancement when it comes to brain power.  i wasted a bunch of time in luminosity without knowing better.


     


    did it help you achieve greater intelligence in terms of learning things faster/remembering better?    also did you measure it with apps and see?   i thought i did but since these guys mentioned it,  it could of been all placebo.


     


    they have more studies on Longecity  that are little bit more recent.


  • RekaReka ✭✭✭

    The faculties you practice get better. I still believe I should start doing this because the few times I tried I sucked... but now I'm concentrating on making my scent recognition better... my facial recognition sucks too but I'm more interested in scents :D


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  • Dale Tobias BruceDale Tobias Bruce Writer
    edited September 2014


    that is just on the game!  you can become an expert in brain games but not received any enhancement when it comes to brain power.  i wasted a bunch of time in luminosity without knowing better.


     


    did it help you achieve greater intelligence in terms of learning things faster/remembering better?    also did you measure it with apps and see?   i thought i did but since these guys mentioned it,  it could of been all placebo.


     


    they have more studies on Longecity  that are little bit more recent.




     


    I can't tell if you are serious or not..lol.. Dual N Back..is about remembering sequences and numbers/letters..if you are constantly training your brain to remember things..obviously it's going to work in more places than just the game. 


    Putting that aside.."I thought it did, but then I read this and it could all be a placebo" <--- How? How could it have been a placebo..if your memory WAS bad..but then it was a little better. That's not a placebo, it's not like medicine. Someone can't just tell you, you are smart, and suddenly you are lol. Come on now. Lumosity is a bit expensive, but it also works. And it works even better on Racetams in my opinion. I went from a daily score of 847 to a daily score of 2400 in two weeks, all while doing Dual N Back as well for thirty minutes a day. 


    ALSO, the article you linked to..can't even be taken seriously..even the original poster says there's no proof that there isn't proof..just something he was wondering about lol did you bother to read it all?


    All I can say is, I sucked at math, it was the only subject that held me back from getting my GED (Was homeschooled). I started all this biohacking and Lumosity AND Dual N Back and I was finally able to pass the Math section with only one error. If it was a placebo effect, it was a damned good one and I don't care, because I got the result I wanted.


     




    The faculties you practice get better. I still believe I should start doing this because the few times I tried I sucked... but now I'm concentrating on making my scent recognition better... my facial recognition sucks too but I'm more interested in scents :D




     


    Me too! I LOVE scents, I would go as far as to say I can even smell pheromones haha Smells get me through the day!


    Fiction is the Truth inside the Lie

     

    76819.jpg

     

     

  • genao87genao87 ✭✭
    edited September 2014


    I can't tell if you are serious or not..lol.. Dual N Back..is about remembering sequences and numbers/letters..if you are constantly training your brain to remember things..obviously it's going to work in more places than just the game. 


    Putting that aside.."I thought it did, but then I read this and it could all be a placebo" <--- How? How could it have been a placebo..if your memory WAS bad..but then it was a little better. That's not a placebo, it's not like medicine. Someone can't just tell you, you are smart, and suddenly you are lol. Come on now. Lumosity is a bit expensive, but it also works. And it works even better on Racetams in my opinion. I went from a daily score of 847 to a daily score of 2400 in two weeks, all while doing Dual N Back as well for thirty minutes a day. 


    ALSO, the article you linked to..can't even be taken seriously..even the original poster says there's no proof that there isn't proof..just something he was wondering about lol did you bother to read it all?


    All I can say is, I sucked at math, it was the only subject that held me back from getting my GED (Was homeschooled). I started all this biohacking and Lumosity AND Dual N Back and I was finally able to pass the Math section with only one error. If it was a placebo effect, it was a damned good one and I don't care, because I got the result I wanted.


     


     


    Me too! I LOVE scents, I would go as far as to say I can even smell pheromones haha Smells get me through the day!




     


    Okay,   This post makes me feel better, lol.     Though those boys from longecity were convincing....they said they had more evidence....though too tired to take....I think they have over did it..  You supposed to do it 10 minutes a day/4 times a week on average.


     


    Sorry but I have been working on those Luminosity games for years....worked hard and NOTHING!  My scores became higher and higher with those brain games...but only those brain games....It didnt translate to higher performance..my abilities to learn faster on new tasks, homework, etc.   was the same speed.   Nothing changed with those Lumosity games.


     


    Only Dual N Back worked for me,  then I hear those guys saying it doesnt work.   However,  I will continue use it.   I am stuck at Dual N Back  6....cannot get passed this.


     


     


    I have always have good memory....but it seems that Dual N Back made it easier to recall things...


     


     


    Interesting thread here.  One guy made it to 9 Back...holy mother of god.


     


    http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/56530-dual-n-back-experiences/


  • OP why don't you set up an IQ test for this week, then train for 3 months consistently, then take another IQ test. 3 months isn't a huge ask in terms of your time, and you'll have definitive proof


  • OP why don't you set up an IQ test for this week, then train for 3 months consistently, then take another IQ test. 3 months isn't a huge ask in terms of your time, and you'll have definitive proof




     


     


    I want to do that...but it seems I have reached my limit with the Dual N Back....I made it to 6.....cannot get passed this....sort of stuck and follow alot of people advise to progress and nothing.    


     


    Dave made it to 5 back.   



  • I want to do that...but it seems I have reached my limit with the Dual N Back....I made it to 6.....cannot get passed this....sort of stuck and follow alot of people advise to progress and nothing.    


     


    Dave made it to 5 back.   




     


    This could be you just assimilating what you've done so far. How long have you been stuck at #6? What has that looked like? What supplements have you tried taking to improve your process?


     


    Try an IQ test, it frankly can't hurt to have more information.

  • DManDMan Master of Arts ✭✭✭
    edited September 2014

    Well it definitely increases working memory and focus IMHO. In the scientific study for MS I participate in I just recently finished a cognitive test where I had to add two numbers, tell nurse the sum, keep the last of the two numbers in mind and add that to a new number and so on for like a minute or two.I have to do that every few months. I finished the test without mistake. Seems like I was the first one in a long time who manged to do that because the nurse got really excited and congratulated me and was really astounded... So it clearly does something.^^


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  • This could be you just assimilating what you've done so far. How long have you been stuck at #6? What has that looked like? What supplements have you tried taking to improve your process?


     


    Try an IQ test, it frankly can't hurt to have more information.




     


     


    Been stuck on it for like 5 to 6 months...supplements I take are just bulletproof coffee...I eat as much as I can in terms of health...  alot of Oysters and fish and ofcourse pasture eggs, liver, Vitamin D, A, etc.....I decided to lay off Nootropics since I wanted to just measure my true brain power and not the help with supplements.


     


    I heard those IQ tests were vague...but will try them...cant hurt.



  • Been stuck on it for like 5 to 6 months...supplements I take are just bulletproof coffee...I eat as much as I can in terms of health...  alot of Oysters and fish and ofcourse pasture eggs, liver, Vitamin D, A, etc.....I decided to lay off Nootropics since I wanted to just measure my true brain power and not the help with supplements.


     


    I heard those IQ tests were vague...but will try them...cant hurt.




     


    IQ tests ARE vague..I don't trust them as far as I can throw a feather. I took 5 different IQ tests earlier just to see what would happen. I got 5 different numbers..one of which was 187 and one of which was 92. I'd like to try out for MENSA some day though when I get good and ready 

    Fiction is the Truth inside the Lie

     

    76819.jpg

     

     

  • edited October 2014

    I thought this was fairly related and interesting to this topic...


     


    http://news.sciencemag.org/brain-behavior/2014/10/neuroscientists-speak-out-against-brain-game-hype


     


    Lumosity PWNED by Portal 2.  :D  :D  :D


     


    "For those who choose to play brain games regardless, recent research suggests that playing some video games developed solely for fun may be as effective, or more, than those developed for cognitive self-improvement. Scientists at Florida State University randomly assigned 77 undergraduates to play either Lumosity or the popular video game Portal 2, in which players take on the roles of robots to solve interactive puzzles to face off against a “lethally inventive, power-mad A.I. named GLaDOS.” After 8 hours of play, Portal 2 players scored higher than Lumosity players on three standard cognitive tests of problem-solving and spatial skill, and Lumosity players “showed no gains on any measure,” the team reported online this summer in Computers & Education."


    Seeing through the chaotic.


  • "Scientists at Florida State University randomly assigned 77 undergraduates to play either Lumosity or the popular video game Portal 2, in which players take on the roles of robots to solve interactive puzzles to face off against a “lethally inventive, power-mad A.I. named GLaDOS.” 




     


    Study is flawed, in Portal 2 you play as a human, not a robot, duh. 


     


     


    While that is an awesome concept for a study, the argument for brain games is based on neuroplasticity, which relies on changes in neural pathways, some of which are physical changes: growing new axons between existing neurons. The idea that you'd see any benefit whatsoever in 8 hours is preposterous. 


     


    Having played both Lumosity and Portal 2 for more than 8 hours, (and yes, Portal 2 involved an unhealthy late-night marathon) I would say Portal challenges me to think outside the box more, especially in ways related to "problem-solving and spatial skill." So what happened was they exposed A and B experimental groups to A ) a stimulus that doesn't stress problem solving and spatial skill all that much, but MAY improve it over a matter of months, and B ) a stimulus that actively pushes problem solving and spatial skill. Then they tested for problem solving and spatial skill. The results should not be surprising. 



  • I would say Portal challenges me to think outside the box more...




     


    Speaking of thinking "outside the box"...you gave me a little segue  ;) to post this only semi-related article I found worthwhile...


     


    http://www.technologyreview.com/view/531911/isaac-asimov-asks-how-do-people-get-new-ideas/#comments

    Seeing through the chaotic.
  • NickatNickat
    edited October 2014
    Don`t know how some of you guys do it. Dual N Back makes us sleepy and the brain wants to stop. Sure the mind is being challenged and it does not like what it is seeing and having to work like that wanting to turn off.

    It retaliates for sure to the stress. That`s the whole point though isn't it? To challenge the brain and force it to compute.


    Does it work if you maintain the effort? Yes, the results and statistics showed us within a fortnight or so. Do your own N=1 to believe it.


    Does it matter what score you achieve? No, don`t think so as it is there to improve your working memory and focus and better yourself. Most people can't get past 7 though.

    If you want long term memory there are plenty of other tricks out there to recall long term memory and Dual N Back is n`t one of them. They will help you get past 7.


    Does it make you smarter....no, but you can process information quicker. You'll learn to do that so it's worthwhile in our book. Don`t expect to learn things like a foreign language in half the time though. It's not that sort of shortening a learning process thing. What we have noticed in our daily work is (and we work with data input of combined letters and numbers all day long) is we make less mistakes and it has helped with simple short term memory as well as sustained focus as the hours of the day start to pass. Accuracy has improved as well as more tasks completed in the hours given.
  • edited December 2018

    Before I started studying my memory sucked. Then I started to study and slowly but surely I was able to memorize whole essays by practicing and working on transferring from short term memory to long-term memory. I think the same applies for Dual N Back, what you are doing is training yourself how to store more information in the working memory. There is nothing special about the game and any game that forces you to train your working memory would have the same result purely because you are training on something and eventually that training will be put you at an advantage in real life situations (or at least that's what we are hoping!).

    Said that, I am not sure if these games actually slow or stop mental decline. If the decline is caused by biological factors, then I doubt such games would have any significant impact.

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