Probiotics - A Serious Truth Of Dare Question

Based upon the threads I'm reading here, and elsewhere, I have serious doubts about my ability to change my gut flora, using a probiotic, long term, after a few expensive doses. It seems that diet alone will result in the gut bacteria I'm destined to have, regardless of my attempts to change it.


 


The wisdom of using a probiotic to heal the gut, also seems vaguely argued here. Dave also fails to make a solid case, other than diet as the driving factor. I see no solid evidence that a probiotic works long term, and those who suffer from irritable bowel disease and other gut issues like Crohn's disease, seem to agree.


 


On the other hand, using a strong antibiotic, as I am now doing, is not natural either. I'm currently into a 10 Day course of antibiotics of the superhero type(try Clarithromycin,) and as soon as I'm done, my doc. plans to put me on an oral antifungal to help me rebuild my gut flora, and kill the yeast, which will be a new experience for me. What I rebuild that flora with, I do hope to improve, but will that really work, is my primary question(Truth?)


 


Despite my skepticism, I figure the time to try a good probiotic, might be a week or so after I've finished the Clarithromycin.


 


BTW, the purpose of taking my taking the antibiotic wasn't for an infection, or to kill off my gut flora, but to see if it would kick my azz into a much needed, higher gear. The chance to change my gut flora, will be incidental.


 


For those unfamiliar with the latest thinking, here's a clinical trial for the life hacker's to ponder ;)


Improvement in daytime sleepiness with clarithromycin in patients with GABA-related hypersomnia: Clinical experience  Dec. 3, 2013


I'll get into the results of this test on me, elsewhere on the forum, but for now, know that I started on a paleo-like diet about five weeks ago with good results.


 


After reading serveral threads here on the subject of probiotics, the problem I see is that there isn't a lot of verifiable proof that probiotics help anyone, but there seems to be a whole lot of possible danger(dare,) if you infect your gut with the wrong bacterium.


 


So given the possible danger, what I want to know is, are there any solid truths that we can hang our hat on here?


 


I'll start with a couple of truths, and please add yours to the thread, below. Remember, only solid truths, which you believe, and why, or dares if you want to warn us:


 


1) Antibiotics wipe out a host of bacteria in our gut, both good and bad.


 


2) Antibiotics give yeast a better chance to fluorish in our gut.


Comments

  • Hi, I read through ur post quickly. Just to add my current conclusion on the topic:


     


    I think the best option for us normal folks (not millionaires) is to buy a big fermentation crock, Mine is 10 liters, which is a minimum I think (otherwise it's not worth the time and hassle)


    then boil the cabbage for about 5-10 minutes. then drain and cool it. Then add a good culture starter and salt and let it ferment. That way you know exactly what bacteria you'll get. You will get billions off bacteria and save lots of money...Buying the equal numbers of bacteria in probiotics will cost you thousands of dollars.


     


    That's my strategy anyways...Next fermentation for me is red cabbage with red beets. Boiled with kinetic culture starter.


     


    If I where you, I would start the fermentation project asap and start eating it when it's done before unwanted gut flora takes advantage of the power vacuum after the antibiotics.....


     


     


    Next question is if you want to incorporate beneficial yeasts? I haven't seen much discussion on this..?


     


     


    Cheers?


  • ACH85ACH85 ✭✭


    1) Antibiotics wipe out a host of bacteria in our gut, both good and bad.




     


    Not a truth, if you mean "wipe out" literally. There are very likely survivors. Instead of taking probiotics, I would just feed the surviving bacteria prebiotic fiber so they start multiplying. Instead of new species introduction, I'd focus on species repopulation. One fiber protocol that in theory should feed only the bacteria you want is at 29:45 of the video here: http://fixyourgut.com/hangout-with-hooper-7132015/


     


    Also, since there's no mention in your post of small intestine vs. large intestine, are you aware you only want bacteria in the large intestine? I wouldn't play around with species introduction without a sense of the mechanics of the ecosystem. Basically don't take probiotics if you're remotely constipated, which can be a side effect of antibiotics.  

  • ACH85ACH85 ✭✭


    I think the best option for us normal folks (not millionaires) is to buy a big fermentation crock, Mine is 10 liters, which is a minimum I think (otherwise it's not worth the time and hassle)


    then boil the cabbage for about 5-10 minutes. then drain and cool it. Then add a good culture starter and salt and let it ferment. That way you know exactly what bacteria you'll get. 




     


    FYI if you don't boil the fermentation crock as well before you begin the process, then you don't know exactly what bacteria you'll get. 

  • John BrissonJohn Brisson The Legend Formerly Known as Ron Swanson ✭✭✭


    Not a truth, if you mean "wipe out" literally. There are very likely survivors. Instead of taking probiotics, I would just feed the surviving bacteria prebiotic fiber so they start multiplying. Instead of new species introduction, I'd focus on species repopulation. One fiber protocol that in theory should feed only the bacteria you want is at 29:45 of the video here: http://fixyourgut.com/hangout-with-hooper-7132015/


     


    Also, since there's no mention in your post of small intestine vs. large intestine, are you aware you only want bacteria in the large intestine? I wouldn't play around with species introduction without a sense of the mechanics of the ecosystem. Basically don't take probiotics if you're remotely constipated, which can be a side effect of antibiotics.  




     


    You only want large amounts of bacteria in the large not the small. You still need some in the small ;)

    My book Fix Your Gut, is offered on Amazon for $9.99.

     

    I also offer coaching:  http://fixyourgut.com/health-coaching-information/

     

    Please join or like the Fix your Gut Facebook. Also please add me on twitter @FixYourGutJB.

     

    http://www.fixyourgut.com

     

  • ACH85ACH85 ✭✭
    edited July 2015


    You only want large amounts of bacteria in the large not the small. You still need some in the small ;)




     


    Do you have a protocol for SIBU?


     


    EDIT: for forum posterity, this a hypothetical non-issue that would be the opposite of Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth or SIBO. 




  • FYI if you don't boil the fermentation crock as well before you begin the process, then you don't know exactly what bacteria you'll get. 




    I pour boiling water in it and let it cool, I think it's good enough. Its' a numbers game, zero unwanted bacteria is unachievable, but not necessary for the culture to dominate.


     


    I did have problems with mold growing on the fermentation weights that came with the crock though. The mold grew after the fermentation when they where cleaned and put in a plastic bag. I boiled them and put them in another plastic bag, in fact two, which I vacuumed. The mold grew back...I have to give up on those weights now. They are unglazed, so very porous, the mold can grow roots into the material. I'm just going to use a glass plate and a rock instead.


     


    Seems some mold love concrete, ceramic etc. Would be interesting to hear if houses of wood or other stonelike materials where more susceptible to mold? My experience with mold back in 2012 where from concrete buildings, I made the connection or question when observing mold on the porous ceramic. Anyway, that was a bit of a tangent.

  • John BrissonJohn Brisson The Legend Formerly Known as Ron Swanson ✭✭✭
    edited July 2015


    Do you have a protocol for SIBU?




     


    SARCASTIC: Yea Prescript Assist.


    My book Fix Your Gut, is offered on Amazon for $9.99.

     

    I also offer coaching:  http://fixyourgut.com/health-coaching-information/

     

    Please join or like the Fix your Gut Facebook. Also please add me on twitter @FixYourGutJB.

     

    http://www.fixyourgut.com

     

  • Sacromyaceses Boulardii is very beneficial to take while on antibiotics. it can help to keep pathogenic (disease-causing) microbes and yeasts such as Candida from overwhelming your body when the antibiotics kill most of the good bacteria and most, but not all, of the bad bacteria in your GI tract. it can also help to prevent c diff when on long term antibiotics like those with Lyme disease. It really helped me when I was first diagnosed with candida and some other things (parasites and bad bacteria). My doctor told me it could help improve my gut lining which testing showed was bad.


    If you ever had a stool test and actually know which good bacteria you are lacking, you can have a custom blend made by Custom Probiotics. they are expensive, but I've used the Lactate free blend before which helped. The 6 blend helped me for a while but seemed to stop after several years taking it on and off. Finding the right one for your specific needs can be a bit of a trial an error, so I think that can be another expense. Culturelle didn't help me at all.


    I personally will never take an antibiotic again unless i have a very serious infection. I trusted Dermatologist too much in my teens and 20ies and took way to many antibiotics for dermatitis and acne. All they do is write scripts for antibiotics and steroid creams!


    Interesting to read that you think probiotics can be harmful. Any research to back that up?
  • John BrissonJohn Brisson The Legend Formerly Known as Ron Swanson ✭✭✭
    edited July 2015


    Sacromyaceses Boulardii is very beneficial to take while on antibiotics. it can help to keep pathogenic (disease-causing) microbes and yeasts such as Candida from overwhelming your body when the antibiotics kill most of the good bacteria and most, but not all, of the bad bacteria in your GI tract. it can also help to prevent c diff when on long term antibiotics like those with Lyme disease. It really helped me when I was first diagnosed with candida and some other things (parasites and bad bacteria). My doctor told me it could help improve my gut lining which testing showed was bad.


    If you ever had a stool test and actually know which good bacteria you are lacking, you can have a custom blend made by Custom Probiotics. they are expensive, but I've used the Lactate free blend before which helped. The 6 blend helped me for a while but seemed to stop after several years taking it on and off. Finding the right one for your specific needs can be a bit of a trial an error, so I think that can be another expense. Culturelle didn't help me at all.


    I personally will never take an antibiotic again unless i have a very serious infection. I trusted Dermatologist too much in my teens and 20ies and took way to many antibiotics for dermatitis and acne. All they do is write scripts for antibiotics and steroid creams!


    Interesting to read that you think probiotics can be harmful. Any research to back that up?




     


    There is a lot of research:


     



    http://fixyourgut.com/digestive-health/hso/


    http://fixyourgut.com/probiotics-produce-histamine/


     


    They can cause SIBO if the MMC is not functioning properly, worsen its symptoms, and cause infections in those who are compromised.


    My book Fix Your Gut, is offered on Amazon for $9.99.

     

    I also offer coaching:  http://fixyourgut.com/health-coaching-information/

     

    Please join or like the Fix your Gut Facebook. Also please add me on twitter @FixYourGutJB.

     

    http://www.fixyourgut.com

     

  • Thanks, I'll check out the info.
  • Strange question (maybe) i started taking Probiotic AOR - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0082DDQH6?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00


     


    the result - gas.. :)    normal or not ?? 


  • edited August 2015

    UPDATE:


     


    About a week ago I finished my second long course of antibiotics, which was the antifungal(Diflucan) this time. Recall I had started with Clarithromycin, which is antibacterial.


     


    Diflucan made me sick as a dog, but I endured.


     


    I didn't know it, but I must of had some kind of weird dandruff that was being caused by a fungus or mold on my scalp, because that cleared up as an unexpected benefit.  No more dandruff ... and I thought that was something I would have to learn to live with.


     


    A few days after completing the Diflucan, I first tried a couple of store bought probiotic non-dairy drinks. Nothing fancy, but I didn't see much in the way of positive results.


     


    Then I got a hold of one of "Garden of Life's," probiotics, and wow, what a miracle. My brain fog has virtually vanished and my ability to concentrate has skyrocketed.  I am very pleased with this product. I would never have believed that my gut biome could affect my mental health is such a dramatic way.


     


    I'm still experimenting with the refrigerated capsule form, but so far it has been an amazing result. I think my wife is benefiting from this product, also, as I've noticed a change in her behavior. She's being nicer to me for no good reason, and after 20 years, it's not my imagination.


     


    Apparently some or all of my sleepiness after eating anything and everything, was due to the bacteria or yeast in my gut. I would get sleepy even after eating one handful of nuts, which is very strange.


     


    Keep in mind, I'm on essentially a paleo diet, and have been for about two months, so I'm giving the good bacteria and yeast a fighting chance.


     


    More to come, as I plan to try Amasai next. 


     


    3) - Your gut biome can have a dramatic effect on your mental health.




  • I first tried a couple of store bought probiotic non-dairy drinks. Nothing fancy, but I didn't see much in the way of positive results.


     


    Then I got a hold of one of "Garden of Life's," probiotics, and wow, what a miracle. My brain fog has virtually vanished and my ability to concentrate has skyrocketed.  I am very pleased with this product. I would never have believed that my gut biome could affect my mental health is such a dramatic way.


     


    ...


     


    More to come, as I plan to try Amasai next. 




     


    You seem to be focusing on the brand of the probiotic, but I would urge you to instead focus on the genus and species of the bacteria in these products, as well as their delivery method (are the capsules enteric-coated, refrigerated?) After all, it's not like the species are proprietary (most of the time at least,) it's just the packaging. Even amongst different Garden of Life branded probiotics, there are differences in the species found in different products. (They sell at least 14 different formulations of probiotics.)  


     


    Also, just for the sake of good science for your n=1, have you considered that your improvement may be what's known as "reversion to the mean?" If I get the flu, and during the worst of the symptoms I'm so desperate that I pray to the flying spaghetti monster, and then I begin seeing improvements, it doesn't mean the FSM is responsible for my recovery. It means the disease followed it's usual progression and, like most people, I didn't die but instead got better. Similarly, if you take antibiotics and feel crappy, then discontinue their use, you'll likely continue to feel crappy for a few days until the remaining bacteria that were not killed off are able to repopulate your gut. Soon after discontinuing the antibiotics, let's say you take a cheap, unrefrigerated probiotic that actually doesn't contain any live cultures. It would be easy to misattribute your improvement to the cheap probiotics, rather than expected reversion to the mean. 


     


    I'm not saying that's what happened in your case, it would not explain your wife's mood changes, and after all many people have claimed to notice results from Garden of Life's refrigerated products. But I am saying that this scenario must be considered, or the possibility that only some of your improvements can be attributed to the probiotic while others are reversion to the mean must be considered, otherwise you're jumping to conclusions. 



  • There is a lot of research:


     


     


    They can cause SIBO if the MMC is not functioning properly, worsen its symptoms, and cause infections in those who are compromised.




     


    I've never taken any probiotics because you keep scaring me.  


     


    I should just buy your book, right?



  •  


    Strange question (maybe) i started taking Probiotic AOR - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0082DDQH6?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00


     


    the result - gas.. :)    normal or not ?? 


     




    This stuff gives me lots of gas. I kind of wonder if it's just killing a bunch of stuff. I've never really had this strong of an effect from any probiotic.

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