Vitamin C

My doctor said that I should stop taking Ascorbic acid because it messes with the ph of the body long term. She recommended to take pure camu camu since it is the most concentrated form of vitamin c. ANy thoughts? 


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  • John BrissonJohn Brisson The Legend Formerly Known as Ron Swanson ✭✭✭

    Yeah, that is bs. http://fixyourgut.com/supplement-recommendations/vitamin-c/. Paging Antony Reed.


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  • BrainSpankingNewsBrainSpankingNews Vitimus Maximus ✭✭


    My doctor said that I should stop taking Ascorbic acid because it messes with the ph of the body long term. She recommended to take pure camu camu since it is the most concentrated form of vitamin c. ANy thoughts? 




    I'd say you doctor doesn't know what she's talking about. Ascorbic acid, when metabolized, actually alkalizes the body. 


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  • +1


     


    Ascorbic acid is great, I'd recommend you keep taking it.


  • I started taking vitamin c crystals mixed in water but then started worrying about the acidity.  I read somewhere to mix it with baking soda.  Does anyone do this?  Does it help?


  • Injecting 100 grams of vitamin c once a week crew


     


    Ingesting 5-8 grams everyday crew


     


    Take vitamin C.




  • Injecting 100 grams of vitamin c once a week crew


     


    Ingesting 5-8 grams everyday crew


     


    Take vitamin C.




     


     


    good lord my body cant even handle 1 gram.  lol.   


     


    i heard that Vitamin C can cause kidney stones if taken in high quantities.   though the reports for that is sketchy.  

  • DManDMan Master of Arts ✭✭✭
    edited October 2015

    The reports on that are not Sketchy at all. When you go to pubmed and Look up any recommendation on diet and kidney Stones it says do Not megadoses of vitamin c. 1g per Day should be ok though. There is a huge debate going on since forever and that is mostly Because dietary oxalate do Not Play a Major role in kidney Stones except for foods that are super high in oxalate like for example chocolate.


     


    EDIT: I should try to find a way to get english autocomplete on my iPhone :D


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  • Interesting, I would have to look into this more. I consume a lot of Vitamin C...


  • DManDMan Master of Arts ✭✭✭

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  • BrainSpankingNewsBrainSpankingNews Vitimus Maximus ✭✭


    I started taking vitamin c crystals mixed in water but then started worrying about the acidity.  I read somewhere to mix it with baking soda.  Does anyone do this?  Does it help?




    The baking soda is meant as a buffer. There is no reason to buffer ascorbic acid unless you have stomach discomfort related to taking it. If that is the case, then just take magnesium ascorbate or sodium ascorbate instead. 


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  • BrainSpankingNewsBrainSpankingNews Vitimus Maximus ✭✭


    good lord my body cant even handle 1 gram.  lol.   


     


    i heard that Vitamin C can cause kidney stones if taken in high quantities.   though the reports for that is sketchy.  




    Genao, you're the exception. lol  ;)


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  • BrainSpankingNewsBrainSpankingNews Vitimus Maximus ✭✭



    Ascorbate comes in many forms. Ascorbic acid is one form. When it metabolizes, it goes into the bloodstream as ascorbate.


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  • The reports on that are not Sketchy at all. When you go to pubmed and Look up any recommendation on diet and kidney Stones it says do Not megadoses of vitamin c. 1g per Day should be ok though. There is a huge debate going on since forever and that is mostly Because dietary oxalate do Not Play a Major role in kidney Stones except for foods that are super high in oxalate like for example chocolate.


     


    EDIT: I should try to find a way to get english autocomplete on my iPhone :D




     


    What about Dark Chocolate such as the one that Dave recommends that has a high amount of Cacoa....such as the Lynt company from Europe.


     


     




    Ascorbate comes in many forms. Ascorbic acid is one form. When it metabolizes, it goes into the bloodstream as ascorbate.




     


    and you told me to avoid  Calcium Ascorbante  right?


     




    Genao, you're the exception. lol   ;)




     


     


    Lucky me,  LOL.   



  • The baking soda is meant as a buffer. There is no reason to buffer ascorbic acid unless you have stomach discomfort related to taking it. If that is the case, then just take magnesium ascorbate or sodium ascorbate instead. 




     


    Thanks for that!


    I haven't had any stomach problems.


    But how about effects on your teeth?  If I mix it in water and drink it multiple times per day, will it cause the enamel to erode? 


    Does buffering make a difference for teeth?

  • DManDMan Master of Arts ✭✭✭

    I believe all cacao is high in oxalate... we have been wondering about why he likes chocolate so much for that reason. For now I do avoid it...


     


    Why should we avoid calcium ascorbate?


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  • BrainSpankingNewsBrainSpankingNews Vitimus Maximus ✭✭


    The reports on that are not Sketchy at all. When you go to pubmed and Look up any recommendation on diet and kidney Stones it says do Not megadoses of vitamin c. 1g per Day should be ok though. There is a huge debate going on since forever and that is mostly Because dietary oxalate do Not Play a Major role in kidney Stones except for foods that are super high in oxalate like for example chocolate.


     


    EDIT: I should try to find a way to get english autocomplete on my iPhone :D




     


    Yup, this is science jumping to conclusions and cherry picking, then the media jump all over it and suddenly, everyone is scared to take therapeutic amounts of the the least harmful substance ever studied. 


     


    There is no evidence that vitamin C causes kidney stones. Does it raise oxalate levels? Sure, and to a similar degree as many other foods. Correlation doesn't equal causation and science should never make such an out of the park assertion (though it does so frequently in regard to vitamins).


     


    Most likely culprits for higher kidney stone rates would be over-consumption of calcium and dehydration. You shouldn't have high levels of free calcium floating around in the blood stream. Calcium-oxalate stones require larger levels of calcium to accumulate and bond with the oxalate. Sounds more like a result of people taking calcium supplements and consuming products with added calcium, imho.


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  • BrainSpankingNewsBrainSpankingNews Vitimus Maximus ✭✭


    Thanks for that!


    I haven't had any stomach problems.


    But how about effects on your teeth?  If I mix it in water and drink it multiple times per day, will it cause the enamel to erode? 


    Does buffering make a difference for teeth?




     


    I suppose this depends on how much and how often you use it this way and how much water you put it in. I'm not sure on this point. If you want to avoid that possibility, you certainly can add some magnesium powder or baking soda to buffer it.


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  • John BrissonJohn Brisson The Legend Formerly Known as Ron Swanson ✭✭✭


    Yup, this is science jumping to conclusions and cherry picking, then the media jump all over it and suddenly, everyone is scared to take therapeutic amounts of the the least harmful substance ever studied. 


     


    There is no evidence that vitamin C causes kidney stones. Does it raise oxalate levels? Sure, and to a similar degree as many other foods. Correlation doesn't equal causation and science should never make such an out of the park assertion (though it does so frequently in regard to vitamins).


     


    Most likely culprits for higher kidney stone rates would be over-consumption of calcium and dehydration. You shouldn't have high levels of free calcium floating around in the blood stream. Calcium-oxalate stones require larger levels of calcium to accumulate and bond with the oxalate. Sounds more like a result of people taking calcium supplements and consuming products with added calcium, imho.




     


    I would also throw in gut issues causing a reduction of Oxalobacter formigenes which would increase oxlates into the blood stream, but you know me, haha.

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  • BrainSpankingNewsBrainSpankingNews Vitimus Maximus ✭✭
    edited October 2015


    I believe all cacao is high in oxalate... we have been wondering about why he likes chocolate so much for that reason. For now I do avoid it...


     


    Why should we avoid calcium ascorbate?




    Again, there is nothing to show that oxalate levels are the issue with kidney stone formation. It is more likely that calcium intake is the culprit.


     


    Here is why I recommend avoiding calcium supplementation generally... I'll let Dr. Levy explain:


     




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  • BrainSpankingNewsBrainSpankingNews Vitimus Maximus ✭✭


    I would also throw in gut issues causing a reduction of Oxalobacter formigenes which would increase oxlates into the blood stream, but you know me, haha.




    I just dont think oxalates themselves would be the issue, based on the available information on calcium-oxalate stones. There has to be a third-party, I would think, to start the process of bringing the calcium and oxalate together. Perhaps a bacteria of some sort. What are your thoughts John?


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  • DManDMan Master of Arts ✭✭✭
    Did you read what it says in the pubmed links. Nowadays it is too Little calcium that is Bad. I follwed a paleo Type diet for quite a Long Trine and at least my blood calcium Levels were Always Low normal. There is actually a link to a study on pubmed confirming that high dose vit c created kidney Stones. Sending from i phone so forgiveness me if you have to Look up yourself. But it should also be somewhere in my List above!


    In the recommendation the also talk Phosphor being Bad....


    If anything the gut Thing is something i can confirm atm. And that i have the Snps for ckd....


    Also Potassium citrate is something that is being perscribed a lot. Why do you think that would work?


    Not convinced.

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  • this is the reason why i say the science is sketchy...getting different opinions.  im off to buy potassium or magnesium ascorbonate/vitamin c.  i  just got my FIRST GREY HAIR and it is time to take some action in turning back the clock as much as possible.


  • DManDMan Master of Arts ✭✭✭
    Now i See. Well a lot of Science is "Sketchy". If you want Sketchy Science Try researching chronic diseases like ms. There is s a loooot of different opinions.


    As Said the Main difference between These two Fronts on vitamin c and kidney Stones is Because dietary oxalate Seem to matter only to 20%. Also the foods high in oxalate are actually usually healthy foods.


    I think that gut Thing is quite interesting though for me. I know Some other member who says has no gut Problems at all. And I know another in real live who has ulcers and stuff and bigger Stones than I have...


    Regarding the grey hair I can't say anything... Good luck with that. :)

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  • DManDMan Master of Arts ✭✭✭
    edited October 2015

    Here is a nice little puzzle for ya:


    I get tired from something with vitamin C if I take it in the morning. IT DOES NOT MATTER if it is lemon juice or if it is buffered vitamin C. Came across it with lemon jouice about a year ago and now I experienced it again with buffered vitamin c.


     


    What is it?  I am thinking about something with PH?


     


    EDIT: I do not experience (or notice the difference) when I have my lemon juice in the afternoon or evening. :O


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  • BrainSpankingNewsBrainSpankingNews Vitimus Maximus ✭✭

    In answer to your links. As stated before, there is no proof that vitamin C causes kidney stones...




    Here this might be of interest.


    http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4265710/


    This study doesn't seem to agree with itself and doesn't show an account for calcium intake when measuring via the Tiselius index. It's only conclusion is that ascorbic acid raises oxalate levels, after which, it assumes higher risk for calcium-oxalate stone formation. Science is not about assumptions.


     


    http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4525130/


    This meta study, while stating that high-dose vitamin C raises oxalate levels, doesn't reference any evidence that vitamin C actually leads to the creation of CaOx stones. It does, however, conclude that high concentrations of calcium and oxalate combined, tend to form CaOx stones when amounts exceed supersaturation levels. 


     


    http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3482487/


    This was a very careful and well-performed study. It didn't jump to any conclusions like many others, but instead just showed their findings. They concluded that high-dose intravenous ascorbic acid administration does not come close to raising the oxalate levels shown in other studies. They believe that these other studies may not have been strict enough and possibly allowed factors that artificially raised oxalate levels:


     


    "Contrary to the findings in an early human study in which 44% of the radioactivity in an intravenous dose of14C-ascorbic acid was recovered in the urine as oxalic acid [7], we found that only approximately 0.2% (mol/mol) of large doses of ascorbic acid appeared in the urine as oxalic acid 6 hours postinfusion, and as explained above, this is an overestimation. The situation would be different for people with a reduced glomerular filtration rate, which would increase the circulatory dwell time of ascorbic acid and any oxalic acid resulting from its oxidation. People with end-state renal disease have hyperoxalemia that increases after the administration of even conventional amounts of ascorbic acid [28,29]; the appropriate dose and route of ascorbic acid administration for people with end-stage renal disease are controversial [29-31]. It is important, therefore, to reiterate that only patients whose serum creatinine did not exceed 175 Î¼mol/L participated in this study.


    Much smaller doses of ascorbic acid than administered in this study have been reported to increase urinary oxalic acid far more than observed here. Several factors could explain this apparent anomaly. First, despite ample documentation that ascorbic acid in urine samples will lead to an overestimation of oxalic acid when the sample is not appropriately handled, stored, and analyzed [2,17-20], sufficient attention is not always paid to this issue. Thus, in 2 articles that report a considerable percentage increase in oxalic acid excretion when the amount of ascorbic acid included in home parenteral nutrition solutions was increased [11,12], urine samples were acidified only after their delivery to the analytical laboratory, by which time considerable artifactual oxalic acid formation can be assumed to have taken place. It should also be noted that ascorbic acid solutions for clinical infusion may be unstable over time [32-34]. In our study, ascorbic acid was rapidly administered shortly after the infusate was prepared, whereas parenteral nutrition solutions are commonly infused over 12 to 24 hours, during which time considerable ascorbic acid degradation is known to occur [32-34]. It is unclear how much ascorbic acid is converted to oxalic acid in parenteral nutrition mixtures [35,36]."


     


    http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2518810/


    This analysis was contradicted by the thorough study from the link directly above.


     




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  • DManDMan Master of Arts ✭✭✭

    Interesting :) Well at some point they are linking to this a study but it#s not free.


     


    Dietary causes may also generate increased risks of various stones. High sodium intake increases urinary calcium excretion. High oxalate diets, large dose of vitamin C supplements (>1,000 mg/d) will increase urinary oxalate level. High protein diets (> 2.0 g/kg/d) can increase urinary calcium, decrease urine pH and also increase urinary uric acid level [14].


     


    Also the German Wikipedia links to a compendium not the specific study. However a 5  second research on pubmed showed this:


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26463139


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  • BrainSpankingNewsBrainSpankingNews Vitimus Maximus ✭✭


    Interesting :) Well at some point they are linking to this a study but it#s not free.


     


    Dietary causes may also generate increased risks of various stones. High sodium intake increases urinary calcium excretion. High oxalate diets, large dose of vitamin C supplements (>1,000 mg/d) will increase urinary oxalate level. High protein diets (> 2.0 g/kg/d) can increase urinary calcium, decrease urine pH and also increase urinary uric acid level [14].


     


    Also the German Wikipedia links to a compendium not the specific study. However a 5  second research on pubmed showed this:


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26463139




     


    Again, vitamin C doesn't cause oxalate levels to raise as high as these claims, per the study you cited earlier:  http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3482487/


     


    This problem isn't solved by 5-seconds of research on PubMed. PubMed doesn't equal truth just because it is on PubMed as demonstrated with the above contradictory study. This last link to results from a survey given over the years, shows a possibility, but not a determination. It is a survey and doesn't factor in other major changes over time. Here is the actual survey used to come up with their findings. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hpfs/pdfs/08L.pdf


     


    I would love to see some actual research done to make your points, rather than finding links to PubMed that you haven't vetted. You did say there was proof of vitamin C "causing" kidney stones. 


     


    If I am wrong, I'd like to know. I don't like working from bad data.


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  • DManDMan Master of Arts ✭✭✭
    Well i think that this is better than a youtube Video. :) and i Posted more studies than you did.


    Please Understand that i am the one with the Stones and it is my body and I do what I think is best for me and I feel there is enough evidence for me to just not take that much. Please forgive me for that.

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  • RekaReka ✭✭✭

    Here is a nice little puzzle for ya:

    I get tired from something with vitamin C if I take it in the morning. IT DOES NOT MATTER if it is lemon juice or if it is buffered vitamin C. Came across it with lemon jouice about a year ago and now I experienced it again with buffered vitamin c.

     

    What is it?  I am thinking about something with PH?

     

    EDIT: I do not experience (or notice the difference) when I have my lemon juice in the afternoon or evening. :O




    I think it lowers blood sugar

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  • genao87genao87 ✭✭
    edited October 2015

    My friend had kidney stones and attributes to Vitamin C but he only agrees with that because he was taking large dosages of Vitamin C and not enough water.   Though ofcourse he has no data to back that and came to that conclusion because his Doctor said so.


     


    I have to order Vitamin C online.   There was a lipsomal from Dr. Mercola but couldn't find out if it was encapsulated or not.   There was another brand that I never heard before and decided not to buy it.  The rest were mixed with calcium (calcium ascorbante) and some other form of Vitamin C that I never heard of before....I believe it was Ester Vitamin C.


     


    Dr. Mercola product was reviewed by Live On labs and they concluded that it is not a true lipsomal and not a encapsulated  Vitamin C.


     


    http://www.livonlabs.com/liposome-encapsulated/pdf/Livon-Review-of-Dr-Mercola-Liposomal-Vitamin-C.pdf


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