Are We Part Of The Problem?

Guys im really struggling with this one....


Im a total bulletproof disciple and have been for a few years now. BP coffee has changed my world.


Daves MCT oil has palm oil in it. Palm oil plantations are destroying oragutans and other animals habitat at a truly UNBELIEVABLE rate. If it continues as is the Sumatran Orangutan will be extinct in the wild in the next few years :(


The MCT bottle states its sourced from cocnut oil and or Palm oil. I cannot buy any more of this product if theres any chance Im contributing to this issue.


Would anyone else stand with me and insist that until the palm oil gets ditched, we either find an alternative MCT oil and stop using all together???


Im all for this amazing bulletproof existence but not at this cost to our planet and animals.
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Comments

  • There are other options! ONNITs product - tgey make a big deal about it containing no palm oil only derived from coconuts.


    I must say im dissapointed. Dave its time to do the right thing for the planet not just ourselves. Please ditch the palm oil!
  • SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭

    Screw orangutans. What have orangutans ever done for me?


     


    Kidding, of course. I seem to remember reading some time back that Dave's was responsibly-sourced, though I don't recall where I saw that. Perhaps someone here will have a link?


    "I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

     

    Let's be friends on MyFitnessPal!

  • sparefilmssparefilms Post-human Construct ✭✭✭
    edited October 2015

    I already purchase Onnit MCT Oil, since I like my lauric acid left where it belongs.


     


    I am a fan of Onnit's responsible sourcing of their supplements. For their krill oil they use Olympic Seafood, which operates the Juviel krill harvesting vessel and can be traced directly back to the GPS coordinates where it was caught. Their ShroomTech line mushrooms are grown in competition with each other causing an increase in potency of the various polysaccharide components and other biochemical compounds. Everything is a bit pricey but you know exactly where it comes from!


     


    http://www.olympicseafood.com/?page_id=301




  • I already purchase Onnit MCT Oil, since I like my lauric acid left where it belongs.


     




    Can you explain what you mean here?

  • yeah whaddya mean?  does XCT oil have the lauric?


  • sparefilmssparefilms Post-human Construct ✭✭✭


    Can you explain what you mean here?




    Lauric acid is a component of coconut oil. It is a Medium Chain Trygliceride with a 12-carbon chain (which puts its status as an MCT into dispute among some people) and is highly antimicrobial. It is found in breast milk and is one of the reasons human breast milk will last for hours at room temperature without spoiling. Lauric acid is fractionated out of coconut oil, mainly for use in the cosmetics industry. Capric and caprylic acid makes up the remaining MCT oil that is marketed more towards nutrition and supplementation. Since lauric acid is far more antimicrobial than capric and caprylic acid I prefer having that added benefit, especially for topical application or when used as a carrier oil for other more caustic oils.

  • sparefilmssparefilms Post-human Construct ✭✭✭
    edited October 2015


    yeah whaddya mean?  does XCT oil have the lauric?




    No, XCT Oil is made up of capric acid (C-10) and caprylic acid (C-8) as shown on the label. Brain Octane Oil is made up almost entirely of caprylic acid (C-8).


     


    BJJ Caveman does an excellent write up of the differences here:


    Upgraded MCT Oil vs Upgraded Brain Octane


     


    Dr. Rhonda Patrick talks about lauric acid on an episode of the Joe Rogan Experience and I will link to the time stamp if I can find it again. There is also a thread discussing it here: Lauric Acid? - Bulletproof Forum though I am not sure exactly what they get into on this thread (I found it while searching for the BJJ Caveman link)


  • ACH85ACH85 ✭✭
    edited October 2015

    The Bulletproof perspective on lauric acid: https://www.bulletproofexec.com/what-is-mct-oil-vs-coconut-oil/


     


    Based on that, if I wanted lauric acid I'd just buy cheaper coconut oil, not processed MCT oil containing lauric acid.


     


    My understanding is that caprylic acid is also antimicrobial, but there are fewer studies about it's antimicrobial properties than lauric acid, so it's not as well known for that. I think the antimicrobial properties of shortish chain fats come when microbes incorporate them into their cell membranes. The short chains are more permeable, allowing the immune system to take them out more effectively. So the shorter C-10 should work better than C-12 lauric. 


     


    I'm not sure if we're part of the problem with orangutans. You might be able to get an answer if you submit a support ticket through Upgraded Self asking about sourcing. That said, MCT oil is still a niche product in comparison to all the other products that use palm oil, so we'd only be a very small part of the problem. Also, if this is a major concern, there are other ways to come at the problem, e.g. donating to charities that support orangutan habitat protection. 


  • sparefilmssparefilms Post-human Construct ✭✭✭


    Based on that, if I wanted lauric acid I'd just buy cheaper coconut oil, not processed MCT oil containing lauric acid.




    I want MCT oil and lauric acid, so I purchase the comparatively-priced product from the company with references links to their product sourcing. Two birds, one stone type thing. I don't want to be buying extra coconut oil in addition to MCT oil  :ugeek:

  • genao87genao87 ✭✭
    edited October 2015


    No, XCT Oil is made up of capric acid (C-10) and caprylic acid (C-8) as shown on the label. Brain Octane Oil is made up almost entirely of caprylic acid (C-8).


     


    BJJ Caveman does an excellent write up of the differences here:


    Upgraded MCT Oil vs Upgraded Brain Octane


     


    Dr. Rhonda Patrick talks about lauric acid on an episode of the Joe Rogan Experience and I will link to the time stamp if I can find it again. There is also a thread discussing it here: Lauric Acid? - Bulletproof Forum though I am not sure exactly what they get into on this thread (I found it while searching for the BJJ Caveman link)




     


    Dr. Rhonda Patrick?   Isn't that the same lady that attacked Dave and his coffee with Joe Rogan?     Also she seems surprised and shocked when finding healthy things that was common knowledge to me...


     


    Also Lauric Acid,  isn't that left out from MCT Oil since it slows down absorption...I thought that was the only reason

  • sparefilmssparefilms Post-human Construct ✭✭✭


    Dr. Rhonda Patrick?   Isn't that the same lady that attacked Dave and his coffee with Joe Rogan?     Also she seems surprised and shocked when finding healthy things that was common knowledge to me...


     


    Also Lauric Acid,  isn't that left out from MCT Oil since it slows down absorption...I thought that was the only reason




    She was asked her opinion about the mycotoxins in the coffee by Joe Rogan during an interview. Rogan and his crew had already done their own lab testing on coffee before they had her on the show. You'll have to give an example of her being shocked at something that you already knew.


     


    Lauric acid is fractionated out of coconut oil for use in other applications, mostly the cosmetic industry. Capric acid and Caprylic acid are not used in the cosmetic industry, they are the leftover MCTs and are marketed towards nutritional applications. If you have lauric acid in your MCT oil it is still MCT oil, since lauric acid is a medium chain triglyceride with a 12 carbon chain.

  • sparefilmssparefilms Post-human Construct ✭✭✭


    What about the NOW MCT? Is that good?


     


    I refuse to buy anything Onnit for personal reasons.




    http://www.nowfoods.com/MCT-Oil-32-oz.htm


     


    "Other Ingredients: MCT Oil. MCT Oil from coconut/palm kernel oil."


     


    NOW MCT Oil says it uses palm kernel oil and their page does not cite their sourcing, so not only is there no guarantee that they source responsibly, it is actually more likely that they do not because when a company practices responsible sourcing of palm kernel oil that is a sales point used in their marketing and would not go unmentioned.


     


    There are plenty of alternative sources of MCT oil around that practice sustainable sourcing:


     


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    http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00XM0Y9SE?psc=1


     


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    http://www.amazon.com/Quart-32oz-Medium-Chain-Triglycerides/dp/B00PR27V94/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&qid=1446153434&sr=8-18&keywords=mct+oil


     


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    http://www.amazon.com/MCT-Medium-Chain-Triglyceride-Coconut/dp/B00LBABJT4/ref=sr_1_34?ie=UTF8&qid=1446153571&sr=8-34&keywords=mct+oil

  • Why bother getting MCT oil and not just coconut oil? Genuine question, this thread is confusing me. I just finished off my Brain Octane so I'm not sure if I should rebuy that or what.


  • sparefilmssparefilms Post-human Construct ✭✭✭


    Sometimes you need to cut through the hype as well, environmentalists are not free from propaganda themselves. How's this for transparency? http://www.simedarbyplantation.com/default.aspx




    Avoiding the hype is exactly why you would want to purchase products from a company that cites their raw material sources, and to make sure those sources are independently verified. Just as you would with any products. In reality we cannot entirely escape all environmental damage caused by our modern life, but in specific instances we can choose not only to actively avoid contributing to the damage, but to educate others and campaign for companies to change their practices. The unsustainable harvesting of palm kernel oil and the damage to orangutan habitat is one of those.


     


    Even though there is that bizarre feud going between some Bulletproofers and Onnit.com, Onnit references their sources and choose sustainable harvesting. You can click the links, look at the raw material manufacturers and determine things for yourself. That is responsible sourcing.


     


     


    Not 100% sure the point you were making with the link, but it looks like a decent compendium of sustainable harvesting advocacy and ideas. Were you saying they are spreading hype? Or are they cutting through the hype?


  • sparefilmssparefilms Post-human Construct ✭✭✭


    The point was simply that people hear palm oil in any statement and jump up and down like they are having orangutan slaughter parties and mowing down forests when it's not factual, referring to OP first post.




    That's quite the straw man though isn't it? The OP doesn't say anything about 'slaughter parties' and using hyperbole doesn't make his claim not factual. You could say "Whenever anyone hears grain fed they jump up and down like they are having cattle abuse parties and forcing grain down cow throats with shovels." and it would be just as fallacious.


     


    The harsh fact is anything that requires clearing of rain forest in order to plant and harvest destroys habitat for the animals that live there. Period. The indigenous animals have nowhere else to go. If you have any evidence that shows this is not factual, please present it.


     


    Here are some of the top references from a simple Google search for "Palm oil harvesting orangutan":


    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/10/141009-orangutans-palm-oil-malaysia-indonesia-tigers-rhinos/


    http://www.orangutans.com.au/Orangutans-Survival-Information/Whats-palm-oil-got-to-do-with-orangutans.aspx


    http://www.orangutan.org.au/palm-oil


    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/15/orangutans-fight-for-survival


     


     


    The answer is simple: Check where your MCT Oil and Palm Kernel Oil originated. Make your own decisions on what products you support. The website you cited has this as their Sustainable Palm Oil Manifesto:


     


    Sustainable Palm Oil Manifesto

    Sime Darby Plantation, together  with several stakeholders in the palm oil industry have come together to spearhead a comprehensive and independent study on High Carbon Stock (HCS) thresholds and the practical considerations for implementing such thresholds, especially in developing and emerging countries.


     


    As a group, these key players represent a spectrum of stakeholders within the industry, and include growers, processers and traders, as well as end users. The HCS study is part of their larger commitment in The Sustainable Palm Oil Manifesto to:


    build traceable and transparent supply chains;

    accelerate the journey to no deforestation through the conservation of HCS forests and the protection of peat areas regardless of depth; and

    increase the focus on driving beneficial economic change and to ensure a positive social impact on people and communities.

     


    http://www.simedarbyplantation.com/Sustainable_Palm_Oil_Manifesto.aspx


     


     


    The question remaining is: How many other palm oil producers follow something like this? Would you rather support growers who follow this manifesto, or ones who do not? In this light the OPs concern is quite justified. If you took the manifesto of a small local grass-fed beef farm and tried to apply that to the entire meat industry it would be foolish, wouldn't it?



  • Why bother getting MCT oil and not just coconut oil? Genuine question, this thread is confusing me. I just finished off my Brain Octane so I'm not sure if I should rebuy that or what.




     


    Different fatty acid chains are processed differently by the body.  The shorter chains found in coconut oil are special because they are metabolized with very little biological effort and help to induce ketosis.  Coconut (and palm) oil contains a certain percentage of MCT that is removed via a refinement process.  By consuming MCTs directly, you don't have to spend metabolic effort on metabolizing longer chain fatty acids, and MCTs seem to be much less likely to be stored as fat, since the body converts it immediately into a useable energy source.


     


    Brain octane contains only the very shortest chains, which in theory makes them awesome.  Some people find that this makes a difference while others find that regular MCT oil serves them better.  When I first went Bulletproof, MCT bothered my stomach, but Brain Octane didn't.  Fortunately for my wallet, I do much better with the regular MCTs now.  I suggest some experimentation.

  • Random semi related fun fact:

    Palm oil has always been a staple in African/Brazilian cooking and has been highly valued in those cultures, to the point where if someone is seen as being wise, skillful, and just awesome in general you might say they "tem dende", have palm oil. In capoeira we have a song called "tem dende".
  • dazdaz today is a good day ✭✭✭
    edited October 2015

    "Coconut (and palm) oil contains a certain percentage of MCT that is removed via a refinement process."

    @music hacker, you may be mistaken on that bit, or do you have a ref.

    Why would they remove MCTs.


    fake it till you make it

  • dazdaz today is a good day ✭✭✭
    edited October 2015

    Why bother getting MCT oil and not just coconut oil? Genuine question, this thread is confusing me. I just finished off my Brain Octane so I'm not sure if I should rebuy that or what.





    Some more general reasons,...

    Taste or lack of.

    Remains liquid at cooler temperatures.


    fake it till you make it

  • SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭

    Why don't you people invite me to your orangutan slaughter parties?


    "I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

     

    Let's be friends on MyFitnessPal!

  • sparefilmssparefilms Post-human Construct ✭✭✭


    I just re-ordered a bottle of Bulletproof MCT.




    Yay? Are you trying to make a point?

  • sparefilmssparefilms Post-human Construct ✭✭✭


    Why don't you people invite me to your orangutan slaughter parties?




    This is why the other apes take over. Still, just remember you can't spell 'slaughter' without 'laughter'!

  • SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭

    Can someone just bring up adrenal fatigue already, so we can wrap this one up?


    "I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

     

    Let's be friends on MyFitnessPal!

  • sparefilmssparefilms Post-human Construct ✭✭✭


    I just love seeing you buttmad because you take everything - big or small - way too seriously and try to get people to join your side on every issue.




    That's an odd thing to love.



  • "Coconut (and palm) oil contains a certain percentage of MCT that is removed via a refinement process."

    @music hacker, you may be mistaken on that bit, or do you have a ref.

    Why would they remove MCTs.




     


    Perhaps you misunderstand my wording?  MCT is (usually) extracted from coconut and/or palm oil.  You separate from the rest of the oil so can have only the MCTs and not the long chain fatty acids.  I really don't need to provide a citation for that.


     


    Do you think I'm saying that regular palm/coconut oil has had MCTs removed?  I'm not saying that at all.  Those have MCTs, you just have to consume other chains as well.

  • dazdaz today is a good day ✭✭✭
    ^ All good. Yep I misunderstood what you were saying.

    fake it till you make it

  • So the consensus is that onnits mct isnt as high quality as Daves?
  • sparefilmssparefilms Post-human Construct ✭✭✭
    edited October 2015


    So the consensus is that onnits mct isnt as high quality as Daves?




    No idea where you got that from. I've used XCT Oil, Brain Octane and Onnit, they all seem equal in quality. Depends on what carbon chains and ingredients you are looking for:


     


    Onnit MCT Oil - 12C (lauric) / 10C (capric) / 8C (caprylic) - coconut only


    XCT Oil - 10C (capric) / 8C (caprylic) - coconut & palm kernel


    Brain Octane - 8C (caprylic) - coconut & palm kernel


     


    The Bulletproof page says:


    "Brain Octane Oil comes from a combination of two sources, coconut and palm kernels. Because sustainability is Bulletproof, we source Brain Octane Oil from 100% sustainable coconut palms, and our palm kernel growers poses a sustainable and certified palm-farming model."


    Though there is no further link to check out their palm grower. 


  • sparefilmssparefilms Post-human Construct ✭✭✭

    Done. 


  • Yeah im making the switch until palm oil is out if tge bulletproof product
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