Lifting In A Fasted State?

SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭

Just curious-- how many of you here lift in a fasted state? Does your performance suffer when you do so?


 


Lately I've been lifting towards the end of my day, after having eaten most of my food. Today, though, I decided to switch things up and lift while fasted. It'd been about 19 hours since my last meal. Well, my performance sucked in a major way and I felt weak as hell. I left with a bad headache and a feeling like I was going to vomit. Couldn't even do my cardio afterward because I feared I'd pass out.


 


Anyone else ever have this happen?


"I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

 

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  • Jason MillerJason Miller Mother nature isn't stupid mod
    Totally normal, at the risk of a shameless plug, that's why so many people feel amazing and have major performance improvements when they join ETP and we get them eating food again. There is no substitute for food, it literally is what your body runs on.


    Though due to a very early training time, my girlfriend trains fasted but eats in the neighbourhood of 100g+ carbs before bed and sips Gatorade during her session, and 100g or so post workout.


    But if you train fasted long enough, the lowered performance becomes normal and you think food is overrated broscience, so there's that.
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  • dazdaz today is a good day ✭✭✭
    Yep. That can happen, especially if you are not use to working out fasted.

    Caffeine pre workout can sometimes help a bit, I find. But other times sugar/glucose(dextrose) is required.


    Did you end up with an appetite post w/o

    fake it till you make it

  • dazdaz today is a good day ✭✭✭
    edited February 2016
    I should add, that you are not going to be breaking any records in a fasted state vs fed state, imo.


    But working out fasted is supposed to have its benefits (apparently)

    fake it till you make it

  • SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭


    Did you end up with an appetite post w/o




    Sort of. I felt really gross and nauseous after the gym and had to lay down for a few minutes when I got home. Maybe my blood sugar dropped because of the fasted training, not sure. Anyhow, after a hot shower I felt better and sat down to a pretty big meal. Now I feel pretty normal, except I'm sore from having performed so poorly. I think I messed up my breathing and used crap form on a few reps, because I feel like I strained some stuff.


     


    I guess I'll stick to what I've been doing and eat before I work out from here on out lol.

    "I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

     

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  • Jason MillerJason Miller Mother nature isn't stupid mod
    Also don't forget that you are a very tall substantial human, you needs are greater than most, you'd be surprised what 5'0" people can get away with compared to 6'+ people, energy expenditure is much lower in smaller people.
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  • RekaReka ✭✭✭
    edited January 2016
    I used to feel good when I did this because I had to work so hard. But my performance was stuck for a long time. Basically I busted my firm butt and sweat without getting stronger or leaner. Made me believe that I've reached the point when you just don't make fast progress anymore. But now I'm improving my performance rapidly.

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  • I lift fasted every time now. last food around 8pm (some nuts, not a meal) and one Bulletproof Coffee at 5am with BCAAs at 6am and lift from 6:30-8am. No issues at all performance wise, but not tried 19hrs or a full day as I always train early in the morning pre-work. 


     


    Been working great for me for a couple of years. Have played around with protein shakes before and different foods, but made little difference. All my lifts are heavy with highest reps of 8, but average 5 reps. Deads, squats, Cleans, Bench, Dips and Pulls are my main lifts.


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  • I often work out in a fasted state and LOVE IT! 


     


    Usually I carb cycle every 3-10 days, depending on my workout schedule.  I can't explain it exactly but I just feel soooo much better when I'm at the gym in a fasted state.  I feel like my body really kicks into a sort of peak ketogenic state and the mental clarity improves. 


     


    If I had carbs the night before, I feel like a freaking BEAST as it's almost the best of both worlds w/ plenty of glycogen for intense actives while still getting that constant energy stream & mind boost.  Ex. I can lift heavy weights for hours & still have energy for a plenty of racquetball afterwards which is an intense sport in it's self. 


     


    I don't have any science to back it up but I think the trick might be that you need to get fully keto-adapted so your body is used to relying on fat for fuel.  The first couple of weeks in the gym are definitely not fun but then it slowly gets better and better.  Then once you re-introduce a little carbs every week or so, it's just amazing.  There's also a lot to be said about the possible benefits of waiting to eat afterwards (especially carbs) but that is another topic.


  • No carbs for me on workout is a disaster!


     


    I workout first thing in the morning with BCAA, HBCD and Gatorade (about 45 grams of carbs). I used to start sipping during the workout. Now I find if I drink half of it 30 minutes before I start lifting, even better! 


     


    Post Workout I do Rice Cereal after (about 60 grams of carbs) with some butter and a whey smoothie. I guess you don't need that butter right after a workout but I am starving in about an hour if I don't.


     



    note I appreciate that a pinch of salt and coconut water is better for you than Gatorade, it just costs so much more. It is a rare area of compromise 
  • my routine for a lot of years was to train capoeira or do yoga first thing in the morning, followed up with a bowl of cereal (then later on that evolved to smoothies with the occasional crazy pancake day). there was no physical training rationale for this, just that my day didn't feel right without a training session and first thing in the morning was the easiest time for me to consistently get it in then go about my day knowing that i've already gotten the most important thing (to me) in. later on i pushed my training back to noon-ish while doing bulletproof IFing.  i never really had a problem with it but looking back there were days where i would feel weaker and maybe a little jittery, especially in the early days of BP IFing.  i like to have a more or less empty stomach when i do yoga, slightly less so for capoeira, but for lifting i definitely like to have eaten something earlier in the day. so far, the times i've experimented with pre-workout carbs haven't seemed to do me much good, i seem to lose a little bit of energy/enthusiasm, like my brain feels like it already got it's reward so there's no need to get hyped up or something. my lifting days are usually eggs/veggies/bpc for breakfast, a snack with some protein, beef/veggies/bpc for lunch, wait a couple hours, lift in the late afternoon, PWO whey/carbs, then rice/potatoes/fish/bananas/fruit/etc. 


     


    hopefully that makes sense. i'm in between the PWO carbs and evening meal as i type this....


  • If you lift weights fasted your workouts will suffer. All things being equal you simply cannot move as much weight with as much volume in a specific window of time sans carbohydrates. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either full of shit or kidding themselves.
  • This is what I am noticing, my strength is declining when lifting on a Bulletproof fast. 


     


    I want to know what people think about post work out food. Dave says in the book to have high fat/ high protein/ high veg after workout. Then on that night have extra carbs. I have always been told to eat carbs straight after training? Is his reasons for saying high fat instead of high carb because when you follow BP diet you become fat adapted or  something else.


     


    I dont know whether to follow Daves advice or have carbs straight after


  • Jason MillerJason Miller Mother nature isn't stupid mod


    This is what I am noticing, my strength is declining when lifting on a Bulletproof fast. 


     


    I want to know what people think about post work out food. Dave says in the book to have high fat/ high protein/ high veg after workout. Then on that night have extra carbs. I have always been told to eat carbs straight after training? Is his reasons for saying high fat instead of high carb because when you follow BP diet you become fat adapted or  something else.


     


    I dont know whether to follow Daves advice or have carbs straight after




     


    Dave has very limited knowledge about training and exercise and is a proponent of very little exercise so you do not want to be getting this information from him.  Fat has very little to no benefit when consumed post workout, and when the training is anaerobic it has very little overall benefit outside of the recommended daily amount for proper hormone function etc.  To date, there is extremely limited to no scientific data showing that fat adaption even exists when it comes to anaerobic exercise and the fuels and fuel systems that are used during said exercise. 


     


    Keep your post workout meals to protein and carbohydrates with fat kept to less than 10g, consume the majority of daily carbs close to training, keep the majority of daily fats to far a way from training, low carb diets are not beneficial to advancements is strength and muscle growth, adequate carb intake is necessary to gain the largest benefit possible.  This is is the summary of the scientific literature to date which is quite vast.

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  • Dave has very limited knowledge about training and exercise and is a proponent of very little exercise so you do not want to be getting this information from him.  Fat has very little to no benefit when consumed post workout, and when the training is anaerobic it has very little overall benefit outside of the recommended daily amount for proper hormone function etc.  To date, there is extremely limited to no scientific data showing that fat adaption even exists when it comes to anaerobic exercise and the fuels and fuel systems that are used during said exercise. 


     


    Keep your post workout meals to protein and carbohydrates with fat kept to less than 10g, consume the majority of daily carbs close to training, keep the majority of daily fats to far a way from training, low carb diets are not beneficial to advancements is strength and muscle growth, adequate carb intake is necessary to gain the largest benefit possible.  This is is the summary of the scientific literature to date which is quite vast.




     


    So should I fellow like a carb-backloading style of eating (fats before training then after training have carbs all the way leading to sleep time) 


    I train and I want strength and muscle growth and have noticed that when doing it Fasted in order to get mTor as he says I am weak and sort of finish my sets early.


    I am currently doing 5x5 training protocol. 

  • Jason MillerJason Miller Mother nature isn't stupid mod


    So should I fellow like a carb-backloading style of eating (fats before training then after training have carbs all the way leading to sleep time) 


    I train and I want strength and muscle growth and have noticed that when doing it Fasted in order to get mTor as he says I am weak and sort of finish my sets early.


    I am currently doing 5x5 training protocol. 




     


    Yes you can, though I usually recommend a pre workout meal that has carbs in it as well.  Protein spaced evenly throughout the day.

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  • Yes you can, though I usually recommend a pre workout meal that has carbs in it as well.  Protein spaced evenly throughout the day.




     


    Will I still be burning fat if I consume carbs before training?

  • Jason MillerJason Miller Mother nature isn't stupid mod


    Will I still be burning fat if I consume carbs before training?




     


    Total caloric intake, metabolism health, caloric expenditure, and lean tissue are the major predicators of body composition.  Carbohydrates being less than half of the calories per gram as fat, to do 100 cal swaps for these macros would be subtract 11g of fat for every 25g carb you add.  If you have been very low carb there is a water tax you have to pay for dehydrating your muscles and other bodily systems, being a carboHYDRATE you take in 4g of water per 1g of carb so reintroducing a healthy level of carbs may cause initial scale increase from this rehydration, also being low carb for long periods causes a carb intolerance similar to insulin resistance, if this is the case then you may need to increase carbs gradually to avoid unnecessary bloating.

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  • Very in depth reply!  as always Cheers Jason!


     


    In terms of Using MCT oil to produce ketones in the morning and then after training eat carbs all the way till night time? Will this work too as I feel great when using MCT oil in the morning cognitive function wise.


  • Laying down the science, nice work Jason.


  • Phil_GPhil_G
    edited March 2016

    Just asked the question regarding having a high carb meal post workout: 


     


    https://livestream.com/bulletproof/ukfacebookqa/videos/115073531 (START AT 19:00)


     


    Long answer short: Yes you can have a high carb meal just not high sugar. 


  • Jason MillerJason Miller Mother nature isn't stupid mod


    Just asked the question regarding having a high carb meal post workout: 


     


    https://livestream.com/bulletproof/ukfacebookqa/videos/115073531 (START AT 19:00)


     


    Long answer short: Yes you can have a high carb meal just not high sugar. 




     


     


    Simple sugars are fast digesting which is ideal post workout for faster recovery and glycogen replenishment, though technically you have until the next workout to replenish glycogen.  


     


    All carbohydrates convert to sugars so saying high carb low sugar is an erroneous statement.

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  • Need some guidance here...I am planning to start drinking bulletproof coffee again.


     


    I work out around 430-5 am on a fasted stated / but I do take preworkouts like alphamine or c4 ripped. While working out, I sip on BCAA as well as added glutamine. I eat breakfast around 730 or 8 using avocado and my whey protein shake (from physique enhancing science - also low carbs) . Doing semi bulletproof diet food  / low carbs for other food source.


     


    My goal is to lose some weight/fat and get my muscles to start showing more. Can I continue to take my preworkout supplements / BCAAs/Glutamine without breaking the intermittent fasting mode before I drink the BPC around 730? Can I still take my current protein shake or do I need to switch up things. Thanks.




  • Dave has very limited knowledge about training and exercise and is a proponent of very little exercise so you do not want to be getting this information from him.  Fat has very little to no benefit when consumed post workout, and when the training is anaerobic it has very little overall benefit outside of the recommended daily amount for proper hormone function etc.  To date, there is extremely limited to no scientific data showing that fat adaption even exists when it comes to anaerobic exercise and the fuels and fuel systems that are used during said exercise. 


     


    Keep your post workout meals to protein and carbohydrates with fat kept to less than 10g, consume the majority of daily carbs close to training, keep the majority of daily fats to far a way from training, low carb diets are not beneficial to advancements is strength and muscle growth, adequate carb intake is necessary to gain the largest benefit possible.  This is is the summary of the scientific literature to date which is quite vast.




     


    Jason Miller - I'm new to this and would love your opinion.  I have been doing intermittent fasting - no eating b/t 8pm and noon with BP coffee (w/ brain octane) in the am.  I usually workout at 9am or 11am - heavy lifting and high-intensity.  I love the results of intermittent fasting...dropping fat and feeling good...but I am trying to get stronger.  Is there a way to do IF and get results from working out? Or is it not possible because you need to eat/fuel before the workout.  Thanks

  • Jason MillerJason Miller Mother nature isn't stupid mod
    Fed training is always going to be better than unfed training, early morning fasted training is fine but you definitely should eat after to recover and replenish. If you really don't want to eat till 12 then you should really consider afternoon training instead so you can get proper nutrition, or at least end your fast at the end of your workout. Likely not eating until 12 and stopping at 8 is causing you to to underfeed your training and energy expenditure anyway.
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  • Some great advice here, really interesting.
    I'm reading with interest as my training is slightly different, but I'm assuming the same rules apply. I train for cycling, every day, 60 minutes usually longer at weekends. Couple of harder more moderate intensity sessions and the others generally easy. (At this time of year / off season / not racing)

    I have my last meal 7-8pm, and then BP coffee when I wake up. I train mid morning usually towards the end of my fast. If my session is higher intensity or 60 minutes plus, I'll add carbs during the workout in fluid form according to how I feel/respond. If it's an easy session I'll just do it fasted on water only. I always refuel post session, with a zero fat carb:protein snack followed by a "normal healthy meal". The carb:protein snack is tailored to the workout, higher the intensity higher the carb intake, up to 4:1 ratio.

    In all of this, I adapt. So if I'm hungry and my brain/body is telling me it needs fuel, I provide it irrespective of theory / science / self-imposed rules or what someone is telling me I should be doing.

    It's a journey, things rarely workout perfectly every single day. Tuning in to your own body and mind is the key, learning what works and having an open (kaizen) mind is a good outlook.

  • @Jason Miller said:
    Fed training is always going to be better than unfed training, early morning fasted training is fine but you definitely should eat after to recover and replenish. If you really don't want to eat till 12 then you should really consider afternoon training instead so you can get proper nutrition, or at least end your fast at the end of your workout. Likely not eating until 12 and stopping at 8 is causing you to to underfeed your training and energy expenditure anyway.

    https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/fasting-and-exercise-fasting-23/
    whats your opinion on this? They suggest that by being in ketosis your muscles adapt to using fat more efficiently and therefore you can train yourself to be as good or better working out when fasting.

  • cortextcortext ✭✭
    edited December 2016

    If I recall, legend has it that Dom Agostino did a 7 day fast before he pulled 585lb and did a 10-rep set of 500lb while in ketosis. There are some guys that seem to feel great in keto while exercising.

    In my experience, keto + exercise is not comfortable... even well into ketosis with lots of electrolytes and such.. It's often like I'm trying to move some weight, and my muscles aren't even burning very much or straining, but the power is just non-existent... like they're given up on using glycogen / creatine and the tank is just empty... there is no pump to work up and the sets are short and quick to fail. Whereas on a heavy amount of carbs, I've done sets of 40-50 pullups at a breeze and been able to dig deep into lactic acid burning thresholds with that one extra last rep. It's a different sort of gas tank having carbs in your muscles, vs running on fat and sparing glucose for your organs / CNS.

    I think ketosis is great if your exercise of choice is low-intensity, steady state aerobics. Or, maybe if it's very brief and subjectively intense, but nothing really PR-shattering. Although, there's always outliers. Ymmv.

    For me, fasted exercise in the morning feels better... but fed afternoon training seems to hit PRs easier. It's a weird thing.

  • Jason MillerJason Miller Mother nature isn't stupid mod

    @disco195 said:

    @Jason Miller said:
    Fed training is always going to be better than unfed training, early morning fasted training is fine but you definitely should eat after to recover and replenish. If you really don't want to eat till 12 then you should really consider afternoon training instead so you can get proper nutrition, or at least end your fast at the end of your workout. Likely not eating until 12 and stopping at 8 is causing you to to underfeed your training and energy expenditure anyway.

    https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/fasting-and-exercise-fasting-23/
    whats your opinion on this? They suggest that by being in ketosis your muscles adapt to using fat more efficiently and therefore you can train yourself to be as good or better working out when fasting.

    Anaerobic activity uses glycogen, aerobic activity uses fatty acids, as intensity increases the mix changes proportionately from one to the other (see crossover effect), dietary intervention does not change human physiology. Anerobic activiy uses glycogen or gluconeogenesis, meaning you body will burn muscle if you don't have carbohydrates, not good. Tissues that function aerobically do so because they can diffuse oxygen therefore allowing fatty acids to be used as fuel, anerobic tissues do not diffuse oxygen therefore needing glycogen as fuel.

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  • dazdaz today is a good day ✭✭✭
    edited December 2016

    aerobic tissues, anaerobic tissues...? this is a context thing... right ?

    fake it till you make it

  • Jason MillerJason Miller Mother nature isn't stupid mod

    Fast and slow twitch fibers.

    My Crossfit auto template programming here, body composition coaching through Eat to Perform here,
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