#300 With Barry Sears

I'd been skipping out on a lot of the recent episodes, but decided to listen to this one because none of the other podcasts i listen to had anything new this morning, and i was pleasantly surprised to hear some stuff that wasn't all product hyping and actually countered some of the bulletproof dogma. What? you mean grass fed butter isn't 100% the greatest health food ever created? MCT oil might actually not be the greatest discovery since fire? I do wish Dave would've engaged with him a little more on those points instead of just saying "oh, that's interesting, i'll have to look into that". I mean, the butter and MCT oil are cornerstones of his empire aren't they? And this dude just casually told him those cornerstones have what may be some pretty weak points. Butter actually has PRO-inflammatory processes? MCT oil wipes out liver glycogen? It also would've been interesting to hear more about their difference of opinion on macronutrient recommendations beyond just "should women have more carbs?". 


 


Regardless, definitely a step up from a lot of the other recent episodes. 


 


And, i don't know if anyone else has mentioned this, but constantly saying stuff like "dumb this stuff down for the listeners at home or driving in a car because i'm a level 9 biohacker who reads studies 25 hours a day" comes across as a little...condescending, smug, underestimating peoples' intelligence...douchey... but who knows, maybe there are people out there listening like "oh geez, quit with all the big words and just tell me how good butter is and how much exercise sucks!".


 


 


Comments

  • WalterWalter ✭✭✭

    A larger audience usually come with that last point you mentioned, sadly.


  • Listen to #299. It's really good. I'm of course biased myself but it's rare to hear a biochemist on that level speak on a "public" show.

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  • CallenCallen
    edited April 2016


    I'd been skipping out on a lot of the recent episodes, but decided to listen to this one because none of the other podcasts i listen to had anything new this morning, and i was pleasantly surprised to hear some stuff that wasn't all product hyping and actually countered some of the bulletproof dogma. What? you mean grass fed butter isn't 100% the greatest health food ever created? MCT oil might actually not be the greatest discovery since fire? I do wish Dave would've engaged with him a little more on those points instead of just saying "oh, that's interesting, i'll have to look into that". I mean, the butter and MCT oil are cornerstones of his empire aren't they? And this dude just casually told him those cornerstones have what may be some pretty weak points. Butter actually has PRO-inflammatory processes? MCT oil wipes out liver glycogen? It also would've been interesting to hear more about their difference of opinion on macronutrient recommendations beyond just "should women have more carbs?". 


     


    Regardless, definitely a step up from a lot of the other recent episodes. 


     


    And, i don't know if anyone else has mentioned this, but constantly saying stuff like "dumb this stuff down for the listeners at home or driving in a car because i'm a level 9 biohacker who reads studies 25 hours a day" comes across as a little...condescending, smug, underestimating peoples' intelligence...douchey... but who knows, maybe there are people out there listening like "oh geez, quit with all the big words and just tell me how good butter is and how much exercise sucks!".




    As to your last paragraph, I hope you don't watch sports on TV because whenever you have a large audience, the announcers/analysts have to pander to the lowest common denominator. It strikes me as completely normal.


     


    There are lots of things about Asprey that bug me, but that isn't one of them.


  • dazdaz today is a good day ✭✭✭
    Exogenous mct's "wipes out all the storage of [liver] glycogen" ... ?


    What...I need to look in to this, studies, refs, how much MCT is required to 'wipe out' all your liver glycogen...

    fake it till you make it



  • Exogenous mct's "wipes out all the storage of [liver] glycogen" ... ?


    What...I need to look in to this, studies, refs, how much MCT is required to 'wipe out' all your liver glycogen...




    I would like to know, as well. If that's true, that could bring the Bulletproof diet to its knees. 


     


    I hope it's not.

  • ACH85ACH85 ✭✭


    MCT oil wipes out liver glycogen? 




     


    Funny, that was the first episode I caught in a while, too. I actually started in the middle because of the "BPC and glycogen" show note, still need to catch the beginning since I agree the guy has some interesting things to say. I especially liked the tag team comment with Dave basically adding up to "you have to restrict calories to lose weight, but you won't necessarily lose weight if you restrict calories." (31:30 of YouTube.) And that it's because of hormones, and you should judge your hormones by never being hungry or tired. Though I would assume a bit of that "I'd kind of like to eat, but I have plenty of energy and it's not urgent" feeling is OK.


     


    Anyway, MCT... I feel like I got a pretty good handle on my liver glycogen levels back when I was doing Slow Carb Diet with cheat days. For me at least, as I deplete glycogen, I pee out the water it's stored with, which can account for 4-5 pounds over a few days of glycogen depletion. When I was really low on glycogen, I lost much of my capacity to do high intensity exercise. Later, on a similar diet set up, I added MCT as bulletproof coffee. It never made me pee 4-5 pounds all at once. It never made immediately lose my capacity for HIIT.


     


    If MCT at reasonable doses actually did wipe out our liver glycogen, wouldn't we all be peeing like race horses after our BPC? Wouldn't we be totally gassed if we tried to do any intense exercise later in the day, before carbing-up? 


     


    He seems like a smart guy, but I don't buy the MCT claim, unless he's talking about disasterpants doses. 

  • drumminangoleirodrumminangoleiro ✭✭✭
    edited April 2016
    Actually I did seem to pee a lot more when I was BP IFing. Could've just been the caffeine or being low carb or something. I use a lot less Mct lately and don't pee so much. Lots of potentially confounding variables though. I often have some coffee+Mct before lifting with no problem, but he's talking liver glycogen, not muscle glycogen right?
  • ACH85ACH85 ✭✭
    edited April 2016

    With BPIF I'd say I pee out weight throughout the week, then it comes back on the carb refeed. But that refeed weight takes 3-5 days to come off as water, not all at once as you'd expect if the first dose of MCT made you dump all of it. 


     


    Yes, he's talking liver glycogen, but I didn't think something like sprints are powered solely through glycogen in muscle? I've read that in general liver glycogen handles maintaining blood sugar when not ingesting glucose, and muscle glycogen powers explosive exercise, but I guess I've been under the impression that liver glycgogen gets used a bit as well for high intensity exercise that isn't weight lifting. Perhaps I'm wrong. In which case, great if Barry is right: in the BPIF and/or ketosis setting I'd use MCT to dump my liver glycogen, get into ketosis faster, and still have muscle glycogen for HIIT. But my experience with water weight just doesn't bear that out.


     


    Also, recent experiments with a blood ketone meter don't bear that out either. Best case I can get back to 0.5mm in the morning 2-3 days after a high carb day.


  • dazdaz today is a good day ✭✭✭
    edited April 2016
    ^ yep, afaik, muscle glycogen does not, and cannot be used to raise blood sugar.

    It is used as a 'local fuel' for the muscles, under certain conditions.


    Which if true, in some ways is a bit strange, because technically amino acids from muscles Can be used to raise blood sugar, all be it indirectly via gluconeogenesis, & only if liver glycogen is 'empty' etc...

    fake it till you make it

  • WalterWalter ✭✭✭

    I pissed like crazy on BP IF, never realized it could be due to glycogen breakdown. Merely concluded it was due to diuretic effects of caffeine, cortisol, low carb, etc.. (I should have connected the dots.)


    Exercise suffered too, but BPC killed my hunger so I didn't eat enough in general.


     


    But I have no issues with BPC after a meal, preferably lunch. Energy is great, exercise is going well, not pissing more than normal. 


  • I would like to know, as well. If that's true, that could bring the Bulletproof diet to its knees. 

     

    I hope it's not.












    I'm having a hard time understanding how this could bring the BP diet to it s knees? People seem to be having great results with it wether this is true or not.





    Frequent urination could be due to many things associated with the BP diet. Coffee, caffeine, low blood sugar would be the main culprits i d guess.

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  • dazdaz today is a good day ✭✭✭
    edited April 2016

    a related quote from the Dr Sears Zone Diet web site; zonediet faq



    The good news is that coconut oil has virtually no omega-6 fatty acids. The bad news is that it is virtually 100% saturated fat that can accelerate the burning of stored glycogen in the liver and increase inflammation by binding to toll-like receptor 4 (TLR-4). Coconut oil that is rich in MCT (medium-chain triglycerides) goes directly to the liver via the portal vein and rapidly consumes stores of liver glycogen. Without adequate levels of liver glycogen, it's difficult to replenish blood-sugar levels for optimal brain function and satiety. 


    ...



    fake it till you make it

  • Hm, maybe I will experiment with taking it out for a while. Mct has just been one of those remnants that I've habitually kept in my diet "because ketones and stuff". Also I figure i can have it closer to workout time with some carbs and get "the best of both worlds! Carbs and fats!". It's usually just a teaspoon at a time these days, but probably not necessary.


    Coconut oil has been used by humans for a long time, Mct oil seems kind of like the HFCS of coconut oil. Maybe there's a reason beyond just lack of technology or nutritional understanding that it wasn't being extracted hundreds of years ago.


    Jason Miller, you're pretty oldschool bulletproof but also beyond the dogma, I'm curious, as an athlete/health-conscious person, do you still see any benefit to Mct or use it for anything?
  • Jason MillerJason Miller Mother nature isn't stupid mod
    Fats are the first to go when I'm doing a cut, most of the time just cutting butter by 15g and MCT by 15g is enough to get things going so I can keep carbs at 350-450g as long as possible to keep performance and recovery as high as possible to keep training volume. That was the longest sntance of all time!
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  • I'm surprised people are suprised. Ketones supress glucose production, just as glucose supress ketone production. You can't have both system turned on 100% at the same time. Sure if you use the word "wipe out" it sounds dramatic and negative. But I don't see one persons choice of word will have a dramatic impact on anything.

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  • dazdaz today is a good day ✭✭✭
    edited April 2016
    My interpretation of 'wipes out liver glycogen' was... 'completely empties liver glycogen' or 'dumps all liver glycogen'.

    (may be that's not what he meant).


    Which is different to suppresses glucose production.

    fake it till you make it

  • ACH85ACH85 ✭✭


    I'm surprised people are suprised. Ketones supress glucose production, just as glucose supress ketone production. You can't have both system turned on 100% at the same time. Sure if you use the word "wipe out" it sounds dramatic and negative. But I don't see one persons choice of word will have a dramatic impact on anything.



     


     




    My interpretation of 'wipes out liver glycogen' was... 'completely empties liver glycogen' or 'dumps all liver glycogen'.

    (may be that's not what he meant).


    Which is different to suppresses glucose production.




     


    Daz is right. At 27:35 of the YouTube video, talking about MCTs, Barry Sears says, "...they wipe out all the stores of glycogen. That's why you get into ketosis very quickly, but now you have no reserve levels to basically maintain blood sugar levels for the brain." 


     


    So he's definitely not talking about suppressing glucose production, he's talking about removing all of the liver's glycogen stores, causing problems with blood sugar regulation. That's why people are surprised - that, and because we don't seem to have massive blood sugar crashes or lack of brain function after using MCT. 

     

  • John BrissonJohn Brisson The Legend Formerly Known as Ron Swanson ✭✭✭


    Daz is right. At 27:35 of the YouTube video, talking about MCTs, Barry Sears says, "...they wipe out all the stores of glycogen. That's why you get into ketosis very quickly, but now you have no reserve levels to basically maintain blood sugar levels for the brain." 


     


    So he's definitely not talking about suppressing glucose production, he's talking about removing all of the liver's glycogen stores, causing problems with blood sugar regulation. That's why people are surprised - that, and because we don't seem to have massive blood sugar crashes or lack of brain function after using MCT. 

     




     


    But the brain can use glucose, ketones, and lactate for fuel.

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  • dazdaz today is a good day ✭✭✭
    edited April 2016


    Daz is right. At 27:35 of the YouTube video, talking about MCTs, Barry Sears says, "...they wipe out all the stores of glycogen. That's why you get into ketosis very quickly, but now you have no reserve levels to basically maintain blood sugar levels for the brain." 


     


    So he's definitely not talking about suppressing glucose production, he's talking about removing all of the liver's glycogen stores, causing problems with blood sugar regulation. That's why people are surprised - that, and because we don't seem to have massive blood sugar crashes or lack of brain function after using MCT. 

     




     


    not only sugar crashes, we don't seem to have abnormally high blood sugar following MCT oil (or do we?), which you would expect If the liver is dumping (releasing) all it's glycogen. 


     


    (some diabetics experience abnormally high blood sugar in the mornings from the liver dumping glycogen, aka the dawn phenomenon). 


    fake it till you make it

  • ACH85ACH85 ✭✭
    edited April 2016


    But the brain can use glucose, ketones, and lactate for fuel.



     




    not only sugar crashes, we don't seem to have abnormally high blood sugar following MCT oil (or do we?), which you would expect If the liver is dumping (releasing) all it's glycogen. 


     


    (some diabetics experience abnormally high blood sugar in the mornings from the liver dumping glycogen, aka the dawn phenomenon). 




     


    So... what we have here is a sweeping generalization about MCT/coconut oil removing all liver glycogen and thereby causing a failure to properly fuel the brain, which is both not what we actually see in our own experience, nor does it take into account alternative fuel sources for the brain. It's coming from an otherwise well-informed guy who sounds smart, but we haven't seen any studies that support his claim or even a mechanism of action. 


     


    Right? So we can put this one to bed? 


     


    Clearly he's got some other viewpoints that are different than paleo/BP: daz, when you quoted his zone diet FAQ, you didn't include his recommendation to use GMO safflower and sunflower oils for cooking. 


  • dazdaz today is a good day ✭✭✭


    Clearly he's got some other viewpoints that are different than paleo/BP:


    daz, when you quoted his zone diet FAQ, you didn't include his recommendation to use GMO safflower and sunflower oils for cooking. 




     


    lol. yeah, i purposely decided to leave that bit out, i did not want to divert the discussion. 

    fake it till you make it

  • Jason MillerJason Miller Mother nature isn't stupid mod
    edited April 2016
    Probably because whether agreed or not, people who look at the entire body of research and knowledge aquired to this day will favour monounsaturated fats over saturated fat, the case for saturated fat just isn't there yet. Even Dave is heavy into avocados.
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  • I'd been skipping out on a lot of the recent episodes, but decided to listen to this one because none of the other podcasts i listen to had anything new this morning, and i was pleasantly surprised to hear some stuff that wasn't all product hyping and actually countered some of the bulletproof dogma. What? you mean grass fed butter isn't 100% the greatest health food ever created? MCT oil might actually not be the greatest discovery since fire? I do wish Dave would've engaged with him a little more on those points instead of just saying "oh, that's interesting, i'll have to look into that". I mean, the butter and MCT oil are cornerstones of his empire aren't they? And this dude just casually told him those cornerstones have what may be some pretty weak points. Butter actually has PRO-inflammatory processes? MCT oil wipes out liver glycogen? It also would've been interesting to hear more about their difference of opinion on macronutrient recommendations beyond just "should women have more carbs?". 


     


    Regardless, definitely a step up from a lot of the other recent episodes. 


     


    And, i don't know if anyone else has mentioned this, but constantly saying stuff like "dumb this stuff down for the listeners at home or driving in a car because i'm a level 9 biohacker who reads studies 25 hours a day" comes across as a little...condescending, smug, underestimating peoples' intelligence...douchey... but who knows, maybe there are people out there listening like "oh geez, quit with all the big words and just tell me how good butter is and how much exercise sucks!".




     


     


    For one,he never says dumb it down, he says for those of you listening then goes to explain the technical terms, which is being a good interviewer.


     


    I mean good for you if you can hob nob with all the scientist and completely understand all the technical terms and make it seem like those of use who admit that we do not always know everything are dumb.


     


    2nd.  If you listen to the podcast with Mark Hyman, which was aired first, but recorded after, they actually talk about the the "inflammatory" aspect of butter.  Mostly Barry Sears was afraid of butter because of the Palmatic Acid, which is inflammatory.


    Mark Hyman clarified that Palmatic acid does cause inflammation, but only if it is increased in the blood.  And according to research eating palmatic acid in butter, does NOT increase the levels in the blood. 


     


    So I would hope that someone as smart as you, who do not need technical terms explained, could do a little bit of research before throwing out your criticism.   I don't get why people have to complain because they're annoyed by him.  He's doing great work.  Go do your own great work if you don't agree.


     


    Thanks!

  • John BrissonJohn Brisson The Legend Formerly Known as Ron Swanson ✭✭✭


    So... what we have here is a sweeping generalization about MCT/coconut oil removing all liver glycogen and thereby causing a failure to properly fuel the brain, which is both not what we actually see in our own experience, nor does it take into account alternative fuel sources for the brain. It's coming from an otherwise well-informed guy who sounds smart, but we haven't seen any studies that support his claim or even a mechanism of action. 


     


    Right? So we can put this one to bed? 


     


    Clearly he's got some other viewpoints that are different than paleo/BP: daz, when you quoted his zone diet FAQ, you didn't include his recommendation to use GMO safflower and sunflower oils for cooking. 




     


    Safflower and sunflower arent GMO but are high in omega 6.

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  • ACH85ACH85 ✭✭


    Safflower and sunflower arent GMO but are high in omega 6.




     


    I'm just quoting the Zone Diet FAQ:


     


    "Without adequate levels of liver glycogen, it’s difficult to replenish blood-sugar levels for optimal brain function and satiety. There are a lot better oils to use for cooking that are also low in omega-6 fatty acids. One of the best is high-oleic sunflower or safflower oils. These are genetically altered oils that are low in omega-6 and saturated fatty acids and also have a high resistance to heat."

  • John BrissonJohn Brisson The Legend Formerly Known as Ron Swanson ✭✭✭
    edited April 2016


    I'm just quoting the Zone Diet FAQ:


     


    "Without adequate levels of liver glycogen, it’s difficult to replenish blood-sugar levels for optimal brain function and satiety. There are a lot better oils to use for cooking that are also low in omega-6 fatty acids. One of the best is high-oleic sunflower or safflower oils. These are genetically altered oils that are low in omega-6 and saturated fatty acids and also have a high resistance to heat."




     


    He is correct about high-oleic oils. They are bred to increase omega 9 oleic acid. It would make the sunflower oil fat profile closer to olive oil. I use high-oleic peanut oil in stir fry from time to time. Works well.


     


    I would not however cook with them every day.


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  • For one,he never says dumb it down, he says for those of you listening then goes to explain the technical terms, which is being a good interviewer.


     


    I mean good for you if you can hob nob with all the scientist and completely understand all the technical terms and make it seem like those of use who admit that we do not always know everything are dumb.


     


    So I would hope that someone as smart as you, who do not need technical terms explained, could do a little bit of research before throwing out your criticism.   I don't get why people have to complain because they're annoyed by him.  He's doing great work.  Go do your own great work if you don't agree.


     


    Thanks!




     


    If you think his interviewing is flawless, great! I'm not trying to put a damper on anybody else's enjoyment of the podcast. 


     


    I'm no genius or even that well-informed in the world of scientific literature, its just the more I delve into anything the more i find things that could be improved, and i've been listening to this show for 3 years. I don't even mind having technical terms explained, its really just how he goes about it sometimes makes me cringe a little. Part of it may just be that i've been geeking out on perspectives that are outside of the bulletproof realm, and listening to a lot of other shows, so it sometimes seems to me like a lot of things are left out and oversimplified to keep people enthused about the bulletproof kool-aid. I realize that my criticism comes across as a little ...mean?..sometimes...but i really mean it to be constructive. I mean, how can anything be bulletproof without having a few shots fired at it from time to time? And, i really wouldn't take the time to even bother if I didn't think the show had some value. 


     


    goodie-tsar-card-gold.jpg

  • You've got to remember this is the guy who wrote 'The Soy Zone'.


    I've read all Barry Sears' books up until that one and I personally find a lot of his claims dubious.


    For a start, his Zone diet in all its ridiculous manifestations is torture to follow. You're constantly hungry and trying to get the magic ratio of carbs/protein/fat that puts you in 'the zone of pure mental clarity'.

    Then when people couldn't get in the zone, he recommended adding more fat. Then more protein, oh and then different carb levels for different people. In other words, there ISN'T a magic ratio. His diet is a starvation diet and he's obsessed with everything causing inflammation.


    Anyway, he can say what he likes about the BP diet, I don't care, because it works. Mental clarity eating delicious faty food and drinking BP coffee, I'll take that any day over half starving on soy and other processed shit.
  • So, listened to the latest podcast with Jonny Bowden, who I guess is friends with Barry Sears. I like how they entirely dismiss the importance of calorie intake for body composition because it's all a myth created by BigPharmaLuminati, and only hardcore bodybuilders get any benefit from it. And the ideal omega6:3 ratio is 1:1, I mean 4:1, I mean 1-6:1, I mean, fat is awesome dudes! The real kicker was at the end when the guy pointed out how honest(?!) the 2(!?) current US presidential candidates are.
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