Long Term Vlc / Ketogenic Diet And Glucose Deficiency / Mucus Issues?

mistamista
edited May 2016 in Bulletproof Diet

I've heard Paul Jaminet write about glucose deficiency and stomach cancer when following a very low carbohydrate diet:


http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/11/dangers-of-zero-carb-diets-ii-mucus-deficiency-and-gastrointestinal-cancers/


 


He writes that H. pylori promotes stomach cancer because it lowers mucus in the stomach, and that very low carb dieters experience a similar mucin issue and this might have some correlation with stomach cancers seen in VLC dieters.  To avoid this, he recommends at least 600 kcal of protein+starch per day, which is probably enough glucose to prevent ketones from rising much higher than 0.5mmol.


 


Dave Asprey has also written about his issues with mucus production following a very low carb diet without refeeds:


https://www.bulletproofexec.com/the-bulletproof-perspective-on-safe-starches/


 


Yet, there are other guys (like Dr. Ron Rosedale) who recommend low protein + low starch ketogenic diets long-term.  Rosedale writes "The worst diet to be on is high fat along with moderate and sometimes even “low” (as opposed to very low) carb.  If you are going to eat fat, you have to be able to burn it, and as little as 100 gm non-fiber carb/day can prevent one from adequately burning fat."


http://drrosedale.com/blog/2012/08/18/a-conclusion-to-the-safe-starch-debate-by-answering-four-questions


 


I've read that high salt intakes also increase the risk of stomach cancer, and that potassium chloride (often supplemented for ketogenic diets) irritates the stomach mucosa.


 


Is a long-term ketogenic diet which requires high intakes of salt + supplemental potassium chloride (eg. lo-salt) a recipe for glucose deficiency / stomach cancer?  Does 1 high-glycemic "carb nite" per week help to prevent against this, or does this set the stage for high blood sugar / glycation issues by consuming high amounts of high glycemic carbohydrates (with little fat / protein to blunt the blood sugar spike) within the context of a physiologically insulin resistant state at the time of the day when insulin sensitivity is lowest?  I would imagine that blood glucose could hit upwards of 180 mg/dL and take a while to come back down.


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  • Yes. Coming out of ketosis once in a while does improve all the blood parameters that go wonky on Very low and 0 carb diets.


     


    Carb nite would be great for this. (Dom, Keifer and Dave have touched on this at various points and Rocky Patel has seen this in his medical practice)


     


    The whole mucus thing, yes Dave tried what he thought was an Eskimo diet and became allergic to eggs. Biotin supplementation (or even skipping the egg whites) could have prevented this. Eskimo's don't eat many eggs.


     


    TIm Ferris, and myself, also developed allergies to certain proteins. This was going to be in 4hr body but got shelved. The findings did come back that cycling the source of protein can prevent this.


     


    In some of the podcasts where Dave mentions the issue he had, the guest has given solutions (sometimes just glossed over). A few considerations that came out that were very important is that the "eskimo diet" is basically a stereotype that they eat 0 carbs high protein high fat, therefore anything that fits those macros should be sufficient (note: Corn chips and cola are 100% gluten free, that doesn't mean it's a good diet). What was omitted was the fact that the micro nutrients in marrow are also eating by Eskimos and during the spring and summer they do take a lot of berries and the like. Get some bones and make bone-broth, grab some berries on your carbnite.


     


    The take-away is "we like to be in ketosis, but come out of it once in a while " this comes from Dave on a number of podcasts.


     


    You're mentioning stomach cancer a lot. Is this a concern of yours? or was that just the focus of the research you reviewed?


    If H.Pylori is a concern (in that you may already have it) it's a relatively simple fix involving a few weeks of directed anitibiotics to kill the buggers.  (Take prebiotics afterwards)


  • mistamista
    edited May 2016


    Yes. Coming out of ketosis once in a while does improve all the blood parameters that go wonky on Very low and 0 carb diets.


     


    Carb nite would be great for this. (Dom, Keifer and Dave have touched on this at various points and Rocky Patel has seen this in his medical practice)


     


    The whole mucus thing, yes Dave tried what he thought was an Eskimo diet and became allergic to eggs. Biotin supplementation (or even skipping the egg whites) could have prevented this. Eskimo's don't eat many eggs.


     


    TIm Ferris, and myself, also developed allergies to certain proteins. This was going to be in 4hr body but got shelved. The findings did come back that cycling the source of protein can prevent this.


     


    In some of the podcasts where Dave mentions the issue he had, the guest has given solutions (sometimes just glossed over). A few considerations that came out that were very important is that the "eskimo diet" is basically a stereotype that they eat 0 carbs high protein high fat, therefore anything that fits those macros should be sufficient (note: Corn chips and cola are 100% gluten free, that doesn't mean it's a good diet). What was omitted was the fact that the micro nutrients in marrow are also eating by Eskimos and during the spring and summer they do take a lot of berries and the like. Get some bones and make bone-broth, grab some berries on your carbnite.


     


    The take-away is "we like to be in ketosis, but come out of it once in a while " this comes from Dave on a number of podcasts.


     


    You're mentioning stomach cancer a lot. Is this a concern of yours? or was that just the focus of the research you reviewed?


    If H.Pylori is a concern (in that you may already have it) it's a relatively simple fix involving a few weeks of directed anitibiotics to kill the buggers.  (Take prebiotics afterwards)




    Perhaps the stomach cancer risk isn't much of a risk.  Lately, it seems like I'm eating salt by the fistfuls with plenty of salt cured veg, where I'm curious if staying in a ketogenic state long-term with this long-term high sodium intake would put me in a similar group as the "Optimal Dieters."  I read that one out of 2 people have H. Pylori, most show no symptoms, and a high salt diet with salt cured foods increases the prevalence.


     


    This was a cool recent Mercola video on "Enhancing your mitochondria", where he mentions staying in ketosis fairly consistently without any sort of refeed, while wearing a CGM.  What would be an ideal strategy / frequency for refeeds with maintaining glucose <= 100 or 120 mg/dL in mind (if I recall, a high fat diet tends to impair glucose disposal, particularly when you're in deep ketosis and consuming starches) ?


     



     


    Could I get away with just 100-200g of carbs spread out over a day (maybe 5x 30-50g low-fat servings of carbs, of something like SuperStarch or well-prepared WAPF style legumes to decrease the glycemic load?) around physical activity, maybe twice a month, or do I really need to hit something like 300g+ of white rice all at once at dinner time and get blood sugar and insulin way up there (perhaps as a hormetic stressor, or maybe with some sort of antioxidant or some insulin mimetic to attenuate the potential for post-prandial damage?)


  • Curious what you, and these various sources, define things like "long term" and "occasionally" as.


     


    I've been doing keto for three solid years now, but maybe 2-3 times per year I'll have something that brings me out of it for a day.


     


    Nothing negative to report so far; still waiting for that crash.


  • I maintain very low carb diet for about 10 days to a month at a time. I'm considering just quitting the refeeds altogether.


     


    Low carb is also a term that's thrown around a lot. A lot of the studies denote low carb as 200-300g a day. Some call this moderate carb intake. I don't consider this low carb by any stretch.


     


    I go by my readings on the ketonix.  I feel fine as long as I'm in the "optimal ketosis" zone https://ilovelipids.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/optimal-ketosis-range-2.jpg?w=676 1.5 - 3mmol


     


    To maintain that, my carb intake is anywhere from ZERO, yes zero, to 20 - 50 a day.  Similar is noted in Mark Sisson's primal blueprint Carb Curve http://shapeconpics.s3.amazonaws.com/Primal_Blueprint_Carbohydrate_Curve.jpg


     


    As far as spiking the insulin. Why not try something like Carbnite, pixie stix or something super sweet to knock you out of ketosis once a week.


     


    Alternatively, you could try using leucine or something like carb shock. These spike insulin without the carbs.


     


    I'm not sure how to stay in ketosis while eating starches. I mean a couple of spoonfuls of rice knocks me right out of ketosis. The whole resistant starch debate needs a lot more research. Right now it's a lot of hearsay and hype.


     


    I agree with insecuresystem, and some of the other ketosis (real ketosis verified by ketones), if ketosis is so awful and bad for you "... where are the bodies?" ie. where are all the people that are in deep ketosis that are falling over, being admitted to emergency ... etc.


     


    Atkins was not a very well liked man, the medical system hated him, so there's a lot of fear mongering going around.


     


    I've been doing Ultra low carb, on/off, for about 15 years. I feel really run down with carbs, I'm a lot clearer without them.


     


    Check out the crazy girl Stephanie keto on youtube. She's ripped, full of energy and at ~50 not so much a little girl. She's been on ultra low carb for years without any refeeds. She found her mother's cognitive performance dips profoundly when she takes carbs. Going carb free saved her mother's life.


     


    I'm not a doctor, but H Pylori is easy to test for and fix. If you're concerned about it, perhaps get the test done. Low carb does tend to starve out candida and other organisms. I'm not sure about H, Pylori, but I've noticed that many of my clients report that their heart burn disappeared after two weeks on low carb under 20g a la Atkins induction phase.

  • Jason MillerJason Miller Mother nature isn&#39;t stupid mod
    Actually my girlfriends hair started falling out on very low carb, I've talked to several others in low carb rehab that had the same thing happen, I started having memory loss forgetting people's names that I worked with closely for years and got temporary blindness in my left eye. At any rate, please note that YouTube is hardly a reputable reference database, I can find videos pretty quickly stating that reptilians are controlling the government.
    My Crossfit auto template programming here, body composition coaching through Eat to Perform here,
  • How do we know YOU'RE not a reptilian? If you weren't a reptile I bet you'd do just fine being 100% ketogenic.
  • Jason MillerJason Miller Mother nature isn&#39;t stupid mod
    Dammit!
    My Crossfit auto template programming here, body composition coaching through Eat to Perform here,
  • yeah, so my thing is that I was doing low-carb / keto for over a year before I found this forum and encountered anyone that had negative experiences. Since I'd already been doing fine, I decided to keep going understanding that I am making myself a guinea pig. Clearly some people run into serious issues that I haven't, and that is fantastic, interesting, and mildly terrifying.


     


    I like to chime in on these threads simply because I am fascinated by this experiment and to remind people that experiences with this can vary significantly. If I were just getting started, and saw the potential risks, not knowing that I could go this long doing so well, I would probably opt for regular refeeds to avoid the risk.


     


    It would be neat to know what differences between people like myself and people like Jason Miller cause the more or less favorable response to long term keto. You know, other than the reptile blood. Could be genetic, could be that Jason is the one true example of a Jacked reptile and I just hit the gym once or twice a week.

  • John BrissonJohn Brisson The Legend Formerly Known as Ron Swanson ✭✭✭


    yeah, so my thing is that I was doing low-carb / keto for over a year before I found this forum and encountered anyone that had negative experiences. Since I'd already been doing fine, I decided to keep going understanding that I am making myself a guinea pig. Clearly some people run into serious issues that I haven't, and that is fantastic, interesting, and mildly terrifying.


     


    I like to chime in on these threads simply because I am fascinated by this experiment and to remind people that experiences with this can vary significantly. If I were just getting started, and saw the potential risks, not knowing that I could go this long doing so well, I would probably opt for regular refeeds to avoid the risk.


     


    It would be neat to know what differences between people like myself and people like Jason Miller cause the more or less favorable response to long term keto. You know, other than the reptile blood. Could be genetic, could be that Jason is the one true example of a Jacked reptile and I just hit the gym once or twice a week.




     


    If you want to make sure you do not fall into having the same issues, ingestion of the prebiotic collagen, bone broth, ACV for a source of acetate, and butter as a source of butyrate is paramount.

    My book Fix Your Gut, is offered on Amazon for $9.99.

     

    I also offer coaching:  http://fixyourgut.com/health-coaching-information/

     

    Please join or like the Fix your Gut Facebook. Also please add me on twitter @FixYourGutJB.

     

    http://www.fixyourgut.com

     



  • Actually my girlfriends hair started falling out on very low carb, I've talked to several others in low carb rehab that had the same thing happen, I started having memory loss forgetting people's names that I worked with closely for years and got temporary blindness in my left eye. At any rate, please note that YouTube is hardly a reputable reference database, I can find videos pretty quickly stating that reptilians are controlling the government.




     


     


    Reptilians....


     


    Matrix-Morpheus.jpg

  • One thing to keep in mind regarding Eskimo diets and other long term very low carb life styles is the lack of fibers probably is more critical than lack of carbs. The body can do its own carbohydrates but the gut microbes cannot.


    To assist in this matter populations far north eat a lot of fermented food. This way the fermentation is outsourced outside the body. Both microbes and their metabolites are constantly added externally. Where I grow up rotted fish and spoiled milk were delicious.


    By the way, anyone interested to come over for some dinner?

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