I'm 24 And I Have Low T. I've Tried Everything. Can You Help Me?

Hey guys,


 


I’ve been struggling with this for a while and I can’t deny it anymore. The amount of efforts I’m making trying to be healthy, vs how I look, is ruining me.


 


I did a full blood panel in July 2016 and the results came up as follow:


Total T 508 ng/dl


DHEA-S 14.8 umol/L (7.6-17.4)


Estradiol 84 pmol/L (ref 36-220)


SHBG 50 nmol/L (ref 20-68)


 


Everything seemed within range so I was ok with it. Since then I’ve continued reading on health and nutrition as usual, and most recently stumbled upon the Podcast Dave did with John Romaniello. I thought it was odd how they were saying the T levels of a young adult should easily exceed 1000 ng/dl. I kept researching, and basically learnt that my levels aren’t at all normal for a 24 year old, especially not one who’s healthy as can be.


 


I’ve been going to the gym consistently for close to 4 years. I deadlift, squat, bench.. I give it everything I have. I had initially approached the gym in 2013 from reading The Four-Hour Body by Tim Ferriss and applying everything in there, including the *Occam's Protocol*. It made me gain a lot of fat and very little muscle. I then tried other ideas and eventually settled on simply doing compound movements. I don’t look like someone’s who’s been going to the gym. I have very little muscle mass and too much fat for how much care I’m spending trying to be lean. I’m basically a typical skinny-fat guy, except no amount of working out and gaining mass makes a difference. I’ll gain little amounts of muscle, lots of fat, and when I cut I’ll lose all the muscle, and some fat. I was ~160lbs at 5’11 early this year, and eventually dropped down as low as 135lbs most recently due to constantly beating myself up over not being in decent shape after working out consistently for so long. I’ve lost a lot of muscle mass and strength and still have too much fat considering my weight.


 


I’ve been eating a Paleo/Bulletproof diet for a little over 3 years. I don’t shy away from protein, cholesterol and fats. I eat broccoli which contains I3C. Just so we’re clear, I’m no newbie at nutrition. I’ve learnt a lot and I know how to maximize T levels, at least.. from litterature.


I take cold showers.


I practice intermittent fasting.


I supplement vit D and had levels of 126 nmol/L at the same time I got my T levels checked.


My zinc and magnesium levels are in check.


I eat brazil nuts.


I sleep enough, dare I say too much. Definitely never below 8 hours, more often 10-11 hours a night. I have low energy and tend to be depressed.


I make sure to walk everyday.


I practice yoga.


I practice semen retention. I abstain from porn and fapping.


I’ve taken different supplements over the years including creatine, longjack, ALA, Cissus Quadrangularis, L-Glutamine, Yohimbine, Alpha-GPC, Phenylpiracetam, Calcium D Glucarate.


 


I’d like to believe I’m not restricted to low T through genetics, and I do have my complete DNA results at disposition if needed. My sulfur methylation pathways are fucked. I’d like to believe I’m doing enough that my T levels should at the very least be a little bit higher, enough so that I can maintain a decent quality of live and be in decent shape.


 


Of interest is that I’ve gone through a treatment of Accutane when I was 19yo. It hasn’t been without its sides and I’m still battling this toxic compound everyday. I could go on and on about Accutane, but the gist of it is that I feel that it is the cause for my low T, and all my attempts to *detoxify* from it seem pointless. I’ve begun posting on another forum regarding my experience over here, if you care to check; http://www.acne.org/messageboard/profile/540409-%7B%3F%7D/content/


 


I’ve decided to try Calcium D Glucarate again in early sept 2016 due to it supposedly helping to clear retinoids. I’ve gone through about ~60g since, sometimes dosing 3g all at one, but usually dosing 1g three times a day. I’ve had some acne back since, and I think I feel better, but my body composition, my progress at the gym, hasn’t improved.


 


Does anybody here know what the problem might be? Am I insane? If my low T is indeed caused by Accutane, and assuming it is even possible to detoxify from it, is my T production destroyed for good? Should I consider TRT?


I’m at the end of my rope. I’ve been trying so hard to build myself and my health into something for the past 4 years, and it’s all leading no where I’m afraid.


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Comments

  • RekaReka ✭✭✭

    Thyroid and adrenals / stress level and carb intake can be interesting. As far as I know, they body uses the same precursor material to produce sex hormones and stress hormones. If you are under a lot of stress (which can easily happen if you workout on low carb) you won't have enough material left for sex hormones because you are using it all up for the stress hormones. Low thyroid function is also a factor, and it's also related to carb intake. You took the Accutane 5 years ago, there should be no traces of it in your body anymore. It should have recovered by now.


    It doesn't get easier... It's you who gets better.

     

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  • KynarrKynarr
    edited October 2016

    Thank you for replying!


     


    I don't do low carbs. I eat white rice every other day and I get plenty of veggies in, a small bowl of berries, and some dark chocolate/almonds. On my lowest days I'll have maybe 75g of carbs. On the days I workout, I reach at least 150g. As for my thyroid function, the TSH test result in July 2016 came up as  1.53 mUI/L out of a reference range of 0.25 to 5, so that's definitely not a concern.


     


    Vit A is fat soluble and such toxic amounts as found in Accutane would definitely accumulate in the fat cells and the liver. If certain methylation pathways are screwed, I can very well see Accutane still being in my system. I still have extremely dry face skin, mucosa and eyes even if it's been 5 years. I still have terrible IBS symptoms. I'm still as lethargic and depressed ever since. Even if it's not in my system still, it may have altered the way my body produces T through epigenetics.. or other means still. It's just a hunch, mind you, I may very well be wrong, but I've found no other theory as to why my T would be so low. Unfortunately.. I just don't know what to do anymore. I feel like I've tried everything.


     


    For the record, here are my methylation results. The CBS/BHMT has been troublesome for me as there's lots of correlations to sulfur that I keep making.


     


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxNPBHb3SxRsdXdJaFkxMmhGUFE/view?usp=sharing 


  • Did the doctor order a test for Free Testosterone? Total testosterone on its own tells very little.


     


    I would say go back to the doctor and get another snapshot of where you are including Total T, Free T, LH, FSH, Prolactin, SHBG, and maybe even check Bioavailable Testosterone while your at it.


     


    Time of day matters of when you get the blood drawn for hormones. Ideally you want to wake up and get it done right away before 9AM.


  • I had requested for as complete a hormone panel as was available. I live in Canada if it matters, and I'm not sure how incomplete the public health care tests are. I've already planned for a second round of tests to be done ASAP so I can see if the levels still are the same. I will definitely ask for Free T and more. Thanks for the tip :)


     


    The tests had been made around 9:30 in the morning, at the most 1h after I got up from bed.


  • HegReg33HegReg33 ✭✭
    edited October 2016

    I have some advice that might frustrate you. Forget about the literature. Stop stressing over your testosterone levels. Though you may learn a lot, your obsessive research is probably just skyrocketing your cortisol levels. In my experience, people don't give NEARLY enough credit to lifestyle when it comes to sex and stress hormones. And I'm not talking about the whole "I do yoga and eat this and that and go for walks everyday". It's not what you do, it's HOW you do it. Let go, and ride the wave of life. I understand you're miserable, and I'm telling the the equivalent of "just smile your depression away!". Been there. But I'm right. Stress will destroy every dietary or supplementary attempt you make out of the water. I hate judging people over a mere internet post, but the negative tone of your last paragraph speaks volumes about your current emotional state. You seem ready to give up. I understand, trust me.


    So, I told you "just relax"... Ready for some useful advice now? Take diaphragmatic breathing very, very seriously. A lot of people think they have it, but they don't. I thought I fixed my bad breathing years ago, but I was way off. Not only should your belly naturally expand, but you should be pushing your sides and back out, and your pelvic floor downwards. Don't actually PUSH. That's bad visualization. Just let go and breath. Natural, minimal force involved. You know you get it right when it feels immensely pleasurable just to breath, and you almost want to cry at the beauty of it all. Seriously. And fix your posture. I couldn't nail my breathing until I fixed my tight psoas and anterior pelvic tilt. That condition alone caused me a childhood's worth of chronic stress. It adds up. Look up testicular breathing. Fill your balls and legs with sweet oxygen. That visualization helped me a lot.


    Detox detox detox, and avoid toxicity! This goes way beyond testosterone, you will not be your full self with garbage coursing through your veins. Facilitate the natural processes. Feces (especially bile, main route for fat-soluble toxins and ESTROGEN), urine, sweat, skin oil. They gross you out for a reason, they contain all of the stuff your body doesn't want. Do those things. Low stress and low inflammation greatly facilitates detox, in tangible ways. Take care of your gut, and have solid bowel movements as frequently as possible.


    Your vitamin D levels are actually concerningly high. Stop supplementing so much, or all together, and balance with real vtamin A and especially K2. If I recall correctly, K2 activates the proteins vitamin D creates by adding calcium to the protein. Don't rely on your diet, no matter how perfect, on supplying your K2. I recommend more than 100% DV of MK-7, not sure about MK-4. The debate on MK-4 vs MK-7 is still out. MK-4 is the only one proven in almost all the literature, but MK-7 has been proven to work as an osteocalcin carboxylator (strongly indicating that it works just the same as MK-4). I take MK-7 because it's a lot cheaper. But it would be wise to cover your bases and supplement with both. Instead of supplementing vitamin D, get some sun. The sun makes vitamin D SULFATE instead of regular supplemental vitamin D. The main difference being that the sulfated vitamin D is water-soluble, being able to diffuse freely through the blood. On the flip side, the fat-soluble regular vitamin D requires LDL to carry it, limiting its transport and putting you at greater risk of atherosclerosis (oxidized LDL).


    Restore your mitochondria. This means ketosis and chronic cold exposure, to induce "cleanup" of defective mitochondria, and proliferation of healthy ones. Since you already take cold showers, I'm not worried about your body not being able to handle short-term cold. But you need more than a short cold shower. Try a more chronic approach. Wear less clothes, splash your face with cold water frequently, no thermostat, and take advantage of a cold winter. I tried a mitochondrial reboot (deep ketosis and chronic cold, nothing but cotton shorts in 45-55 degrees for 4 days to give you an idea), and WOW did it make a difference in my feelings of virility! This isn't for everyone, not everybody can handle the stress of a metabolic winter. But I strongly everybody should at least work towards it, until they can handle it. The benefits are too great to ignore. But please be careful, and listen to your body. Getting frostbite is something you should absolutely avoid. And the stress from ketosis can easily set you back as well, temporarily. It will get better with slow and easy practice.


    The cold  could help in a different way, by causing fat cell apoptosis. This is only speculative on my end, but this could potentially reduce aromatase greatly. By killing the fat cells, as opposed to simply shrinking them via caloric restriction.


    Iodine (Lugol's iodine, or just potassium iodide, the debate still rages on) on testicles. Works for a lot of folks, and works damn well. I've experienced a small effect, but I have a lot of experience loading up on iodine and detoxing bromines with iodine, so my potential was more or less realized. Yet, I STILL got benefits. Be careful with this one. In mine and others' experience, it's pretty safe, a slight burning at worst. But still. I'm not a doctor, and this at least seems pretty extreme.


    Try Butea Superba. The research is scant. There is but one case study of it's efficacy, but it's very intriguing. It was a single, 35 year old Thai male complaining of an annoyingly high sex drive. He had no idea what was going on. His DHT was 1512 pg/ml (normal range 250-990 pg/ml)!!! If you know anything about DHT, it makes testosterone look like a girly hormone. DHT is ~3-10x more potent of an androgen than testosterone. The doctor reviewed his supplemental history, and took note of the Butea Superba (unknown dosage, probably high amounts of the fresh root. He advised the man to stop taking it, and voila. Within a week, his DHT levels returned to within the normal range, and his symptoms subsided. It's worth noting how temporary the effect is. But it's nice to remember what it's like feeling like a man. Gives you a tangible goal to work towards. Be wary of the other ingredients in the butea supplements you buy. The one I bought turned out to have brown rice flour, wouldn't recommend.


    Good luck man! Have patients. It took me a ton of money, and many years to get to a point where every waking minute wasn't absolutely agonizing. You can do it, too. And for a lot cheaper with advice from the amazing and wise members of the BP forum!


    I'd like to add that hormonal testing, while fairly accurate, isn't the end-all be-all of measurement. It tells you only of serum hormone levels. Nothing of sensitivity at the androgen receptor, how many androgen receptors there are and where, and whether or not the serum hormones even made it into the tissues. Modern endocrinology is not a mature science.


    By the way, 500 ng isn't THAT low. It's low by caveman standards, but it's about average by modern standards. I understand you want to be the caveman. Don't we all.


    PM me about the methylation issues, I have a lot of experience with that. I think it's a huge contributor to your issues. So much to write about this subject.


  • dazdaz today is a good day ✭✭✭
    edited October 2016
    "Your vitamin D levels are actually concerningly high"


    Heg, just in case you missed it,

    the vit D units are nmol/L,

    So the result is 50.44 ng/ml in 'US units'.

    fake it till you make it

  • HegReg33HegReg33 ✭✭
    edited October 2016


    "Your vitamin D levels are actually concerningly high"


    Heg, just in case you missed it,

    the vit D units are nmol/L,

    So the result is 50.44 ng/ml in 'US units'.




    Good catch, man!! Appreciate it.


    OP, I still recommend K2 to activate the vitamin D/A proteins, and the sun for vitamin D sulfate. But those are safe numbers for vitamin D, with potential room for improvement even.


  • katolotuskatolotus ✭✭✭
    edited October 2016

    What time of day was the blood drawn and where were you in your training cycle?


     


    From what I've read, T moves up and down during the day and also before and after heavy training days. Not sure if it would be enough to strongly effect the results, but might be worth looking into or retesting.


     


    I've had my checked a few times. I've taken some test fasted and some after breakfast and the results after eating and later in the day have always been much lower.


     


    My last test, where my T was good, I drew at 4am, fasted, after 7hrs of good sleep. My Testosterone, and Testosterone-Bioavailable were both in the right range. My Free-Testosterone was just below the range, but I'm in the middle of a training cycle and has trained hard for a few days before, so I'm not too worried about a lowish reading, but will keep an eye on it when I retest.


    Katolotus

    MMA Fighter

     

    SUCCESS: A lot of little things done well

  • Thank you so much for your reply HegReg33.


     


    You're definitely correct on the stress side of things. I tend to be stressed out all the time. I reassure you though that when I say *I'm ready to give up*, I'm referring to being natural. I never thought I'd consider TRT/steroids at 24yo, but.. here I am. I went to the gym yesterday and squatted like no other. My thighs and upper back hurt so bad that it's hard to walk right now. And yet, I know that I won't get stronger, just because my body doesn't like to grow muscles. And before anybody mentions it, I don't overtrain. I've just taken the habit of pushing my sets to failure, because it doesn't make a difference anyway. At least it feels like I'm really giving it all.


     


    I've definitely focused a lot on breathing, though you're right I can definitely improve. I had to learn to visualize my breathing exactly the way you mentioned through learning semen retention, else it made it too hard to *retain*. Books like The Multi-Orgasmic Man and The Way of The Superior Man helped me with that. I also spend 20 minutes every evening on an Acupressure mat while listening to the Pzizz nap app. Cliché I know, but it helps relax and I figure it can do no wrong. Yoga helps me a lot with my breathing and posture, but again, I'm sure I can improve.


     


    For detoxing, I take Calcium D Glucarate and cycle other supplements. I take 1g vit C before bed. I make a bentonite clay mask once a week and also drink clay sometimes. I avoid plastic containers. I drink lime water. I eat lots of healthy fats. I cycle protein and limit methionine/cysteine while adding some glycine whenever possible. I do go into ketosis from time to time, usually when cutting, though probably not often enough. I even make my own toothpaste and avoid most conventional house cleaning products. You know the drill. I do everything I know to do in order to detoxify from all the poisonous stuff that's around us. For the record, I don't have skin oil. That's the results of Accutane. My face skin is unbelievably dry. Hell, even breathing through my nose is troublesome due to a chronic rhinitis. That does make relaxing tough sometimes.


     


    My D levels I believe are ok, thank you Daz for converting to american units! I've been basing myself off this post for my D levels. I was a little surprised with how high it was though. I had been supplementing 3/4k IU every other day for about 3 years and this was the first time I had it checked. I've since stopped using vit D supplements so often and I try to get out more often instead. I'm considering supplementing during the winter only.


     


    Both K2 and Iodine have been on my radar for a while. I kept putting them off because I try other supplement and nootropics instead. I've just ordered them both. There's no question I'm deficient in both as there's no grass-fed dairy in Canada, and I use Pink Himalayan salt, so no significant Iodine source that I know of.


     


    I have tried some form of cold therapy from The Four-Hour Body, which consists of putting an icepack on your lower neck to supercharge your system. This, along with the cold showers and the very cold winters in Quebec City, and my liking to sleep naked, I think are enough cold exposure for me haha. I'd do cryotherapy but there's no such thing here. I really need to move. In any case, I'll look into other ways to augment my cold exposure and to be in ketosis more often.


     


    The speculation on my end, besides my T production having been tampered with, is that my body has a tendency to want to accumulate fat instead of muscle, because I have toxic amounts of vit A in my liver that the body wants to move elsewhere. Killing more fat cells might be a very good idea because of this. Part of this has been my basis to use high and frequent amounts of Calcium D Glucarate, though I wonder if it's able to go and take the vit A stored in the liver..


     


    I'm not sure what the deal with rubbing Iodine is, but I'll try it. I've also ordered Butea for the heck of it. Any idea of a recommended dosage?


     


    By the way, I really don't worry too much about the T test results. I've had it in my mind for about 4 years that I had low T levels. It was just a hunch, and everyone around me kept telling me there was no way. That's why I was surprised initially when I got the results; everything seemed fine, based on my doc at least. I'd agree 508 doesn't seem like the end of the world; some posts on the internet read much lower numbers. I doubt however that the people posting lower numbers do as many things as I do to maintain healthy levels of manliness. If anything, I'd expect myself to have super high numbers. But again, it doesn't matter much. The reality is it's near impossible for me to build muscle, and I have low energy, tend to be depressed, sleep all the time.. and if it's not correlated to low T, then I don't know what the issue may be.


     


    Again, thank you so much for your reply. It's very helpful and I'll look into everything mentioned here. I'm open to trying it all.


     


    I'll PM you about the methylation issues! ;)

  • @katolotus


    Blood test was at 9:30 am, fasted, about an hour after I got up. I had taken 2 days off from the gym prior to the test, and avoided supplements or anything producing abnormal readings about 24 hours prior.


    I guess I'll add my cortisol levels at that time, too; Cortisol 488 nmol/L


  • DManDMan Master of Arts ✭✭✭

    Have you experimented with shining IR or UV light on your testies? There is some lighthacking thread going recently in in which it is mentioned.


    May you be well, may you be happy, may you be healthy, may you be loved.

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  • The more I look into Accutane toxicity, the more I think you're right... that might be your root problem.


    You're obviously more versed in accutane detox, I can't really help you too much there. But now I highly recommend you take K2, probably both forms to be sure. It might just use up all of that built-up synthetic retinoids, just like Vitamin K2 would use up Vitamin A. I really don't know if accutane interacts with K2 that way, but it's definitely worth a shot.


    http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/on-the-trail-of-the-elusive-x-factor-a-sixty-two-year-old-mystery-finally-solved/#interactions


  • What's your total cholesterol? 


    My personal blog : healthbydiet.net

  • @DMan

    Haven't tried that. I'll have to check it out.. I've yet to hear about that. Is it easy and inexpensive to try?


     


    @HegReg33


    That's what I'm afraid of. I'm really hoping this isn't the case, or if it is, that it can be fixed somehow. I'm not sure I fully get this graph but I don't see how K2 would help flush accumulated toxic amounts of vit A. I'll just try and see how I feel..


     


    @HealthByDiet


    As of July 2016:


    Cholesterol total 4.62 nmol/L (<6)


    Triglycerides 0.44 nmol/L (<1.70)


    HDL direct 1.97 nmol/L (>1.00)


    LDL 2.45 nmol/L


    non-HDL 2.65 nmol/L


    CHOL/HDL 2.35 (<6.00)




  • @DMan

    Haven't tried that. I'll have to check it out.. I've yet to hear about that. Is it easy and inexpensive to try?


     


    @HegReg33


    That's what I'm afraid of. I'm really hoping this isn't the case, or if it is, that it can be fixed somehow. I'm not sure I fully get this graph but I don't see how K2 would help flush accumulated toxic amounts of vit A. I'll just try and see how I feel..


     


    @HealthByDiet


    As of July 2016:


    Cholesterol total 4.62 nmol/L (<6)


    Triglycerides 0.44 nmol/L (<1.70)


    HDL direct 1.97 nmol/L (>1.00)


    LDL 2.45 nmol/L


    non-HDL 2.65 nmol/L


    CHOL/HDL 2.35 (<6.00)




     


    Your total cholesterol is kinda low. Get total above 5.18 (200 mg/dL) and you'll probably see T increase. Or you could try taking small doses of pregnenolone. Start with 10 mg. 

    My personal blog : healthbydiet.net

  • WalterWalter ✭✭✭
    edited October 2016

    Some things to try/consider would be: stop intermittent fasting a few days a week, eat a big breakfast with carbs in the morning. How's your light situation? You say you sleep long enough, but do you follow all sleep hygiene rules? I would also look at you environment, as you seem to be doing a lot already, there might be something in your house/office/surrounding environment that's having a negative impact. You can check if there's a problem in general by living somewhere else for a while, being more in nature or whatever is completely different from your current situation.


     


    Feeling stressed out all the time is a red flag too. I'd add some type of meditation or HRV training. The stress might be tied to your environment.


  • KynarrKynarr
    edited October 2016

    @HealthByDiet


    I thought my numbers were ok overall, except maybe HDL could have been higher. I'm not sure what else to do to increase it though haha. I already eat eggs plenty and get a ton of saturated fat through coconut oil and butter, and avocado oil too I guess..


     


    @Walter


    I've stopped intermittent fasting from time to time over the past 3 years, usually when trying to gain weight without feeling too restricted in my eating window. I'd say I feel better on IF generally. I use Flux on my pc and my cellphone. I wear blue light blocking glasses sometimes. I sleep in complete darkness. I stop eating much before bed. I drink chamomile and get some honey other times in order to facilitate sleep on the days where I feel it's warranted. I've read the most recent book *The power of when* and confirmed my general life pattern; I'm a wolf. I've never, ever had issues with sleep, other than hypersomnia. Falling asleep is really easy for me. It's getting up in the morning that's hard.


     


    I've moved 3 times over the past 3 years. Apartments all the time, so I've no control over mold or other kinds of toxins. It's definitely not impossible that my environment affects me, actually I'm sure it does, but until I have my own home, I'm going to be limited in terms of what I can manage. I work in an office too so I'm certainly a victim of that environment. Living/sleeping elsewhere does not change my situation. I go in nature as much as possible. Definitely helps. I love nature ^^


     


    I figure the acupressure/meditation I do every day should cover it. Haven't looked into HRV. I'll check it out.


     


    Thanks for the tips :)


  • HegReg33HegReg33 ✭✭
    edited October 2016

    @HegReg33

    That's what I'm afraid of. I'm really hoping this isn't the case, or if it is, that it can be fixed somehow. I'm not sure I fully get this graph but I don't see how K2 would help flush accumulated toxic amounts of vit A. I'll just try and see how I feel..




    The graph just shows how critical Vitamin K2 is to Vitamin A and D metabolism. One wonders that if taking a commonly deficient major factor in Vitamin A metabolism can presumably facilitate excretion, then this may apply to Vitamin A-like retinoids such as Accutane. Since it's something you should be getting anyway, it's worth a shot.


    I'd also make sure you're getting enough zinc. Has some protective effects against retinol, and may apply to Accutane as well: http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/vitamin-A#nutrient-interactions


    Sorry you have to go through this, man :( Best of luck.


  • I've yet to receive the supplements I ordered yet, but I'm getting more and more curious to try Butea. Coincidentally, Accutane has been proven to inhibit 5ar. I have yet to dabble this particular subject, but I'm possibly dealing with a permanently skewed androgen system. I've been megadosing Calcium D Glucarate in an attempt to flush toxic vit A amounts. I've gone through close to 100g in the past 45 days and it's very slightly improved my dryness symptoms. What if whatever good it's done me, is through flushing Estrogen, allowing more T to be converted to DHT? Or the reverse.

    I'll try K2 too for sure, and Iodine too, but I've been reading a whole bunch and I can't see why I'd be deficient in Iodine. I eat lots of seafood and Pink Himalayan Salt contains some. Mercola/Paleo seem mostly against supplementing it. Bulletproof gives a very shallow explanation as to why we should supplement it. As for K2, I recall trying Kerry Gold butter in high amounts once and it changed nothing. We'll see.

    http://max001.proboards.com/thread/184/missing-point-inhibiting-5ar
    http://www.protocol-online.org/forums/uploads/monthly_08_2010/msg-19273-027408800 1282061244.ipb
    http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4541

    -

    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/06/29/iodine-deficiency-risk.aspx - mostly against supplementing
    https://blog.bulletproof.com/optimize-your-supplements/ - for using 1mg per day, but very uninformative
    http://paleoleap.com/iodine-much-much/ - avoid high doses
    http://paleoleap.com/goitrogens-and-iodine/ - nothing really worrisome about goitrogens.
    http://paleoleap.com/iodine-getting-enough/ - paleo leads to lower Iodine. Iodized salt and seafood help
    http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Testosterone_Iodine.aspx - shows increased T, but is against Iodine

  • dazdaz today is a good day ✭✭✭
    edited October 2016

    never heard of butea superba before, until this thread. i would have added some to my iherb order if they stocked it (which they don't). it does look interesting. & only cheap $ wise.

    fake it till you make it

  • edited October 2016

    Couple of thoughts:

    (1) Low Testosterone:

    It seems like you actually fall more in the realm of low-normal rather than low.

    https://www.menshormonalhealth.com/normal-testosterone-levels.html

    You actually fall within 1 std deviation of Avg for your age, and are just slightly out of 1 std dev for 'normal' testosterone.

    When considering lab variation, it's probably nothing to worry about.

    (2) Do you symptomatically have low testosterone?

    Any loss of libido? Trouble losing weight? Fatigue? Trouble gaining muscle? Etc...

    It's more important to focus on the symptoms rather than the numbers of a lab.

    In medicine we say, Treat the Patient not the numbers...

    If you don't have any symptoms of low testosterone, then don't worry too much about the number... especially since it's not dramatically low.

    (3) Do you want to optimize Testosterone?

    Now there obviously IS a difference between normal range and OPTIMAL values. I wrote about brief article about what I was doing for my T here:

    http://bjjcaveman.com/2013/03/25/nutritional-ketosis-and-testosterone/

    Just some questions for you:

    How's your caffeine intake? Are you taking fish oil? Are you getting in enough healthy fats? Are you avoiding endocrine disruptors? Hows your magnesium supplementation? You say your Mg levels are ok, but that doesn't necessarily mean you have enough Mg since it can be hard to measure.

    How often are you lifting heavy weights?

    (4) For further exploration...

    You might want to work with your doctor to explore of there is any central/extragonadal issues going on... maybe there's some pituitary dysfunction...

    Hows your thyroid? Hows your cortisol? Have those things been measured?

    Best of luck!

    Check out my blogs 

     

    www.bjjcaveman.com

     

    www.theketorash.com

  • KynarrKynarr
    edited October 2016

    @HegReg33
    I've received the Iodine and the K2 about a week ago. Haven't got to try K2 very much and I don't expect sudden changes from it so i'll just take my time and supplement at appropriate times, but let me say this; no supplement has ever impacted me as much as Iodine, except maybe Phenibut/Modafinil ;)

    I can't believe just a week ago I was of the belief there was no way this would help me. I've never had this much energy and mind clarity. I no longer feel the need to sleep any more than 8h. I get up just fine, actually going to bed has been tough haha. I've been sick for the first time in years, lost weight cuz I couldn't eat much, and yet somehow gained strength at the gym.

    I've only been taking 1-2 drops per day @ 640mcg.

    Any idea why this might be? I've been reading a bunch on Fluoride/Bromine toxicity. Could there be any correlation to Accutane too? I do have one symptom of Fluorosis on a front teeth that I've had for as long as I can remember.

    I feel amazing. Face skin is still dry, but I feel drastically better.

    Still waiting on the Butea, and I'm looking into ordering Mk-2866 as a last resort.

    @bjjcaveman
    I maintain the belief I fall in the low considering my lifestyle. All symptoms have been pointing towards it. I would have libido problems if I did not proactively do no fap/no porn + semen retention. Even then, my libido is just a-ok. Anyone who does that I'd expect to be a horny monster. Much fatigue, much trouble gaining muscle, no real issues losing weight but always maintaining some fat no matter how low my weight goes.

    I drink at most one cup of coffee per day, every other day. Used to take fish oil but I was likely taking some oxidized form; it was doing me no good. Tried some top quality fish oil and I don't recall it doing me any good either. I do eat wild sockeye salmon at least twice a week. Much coconut oil and avocado oil, and canadian butter (the most unhealthy, unfortunately). I am not familiar with endocrine disruptors so I couldn't say. I supplemented magnesium and zinc at some point and it did nothing that I remember of. Not to say I shouldn't look into supplementing, but I've never given it much thought, believing I've been getting enough of both through my diet.

    I currently lift A/B/C Push/Pull/Legs on a 9 days cycle. Deadlift, Bench, Squat, PPulls, and some additional exercices. I feel it the following days, without fail.

    As for Thyroid, only TSH has been tested for it I believe. Cortisol was tested too, I've posted both here. I definitely should have had a more detailed report, unfortunately that's the best they (our great Canadian health care!) could come up with. I'll find some place to get more testing done by the end of the year.

    Thank you for your help! :)

  • Last thing to add in regards to Iodine; A weird, but oddly pleasant tingling sensation in my prefrontal cortex? Like something there is somehow being stimulated.

  • DManDMan Master of Arts ✭✭✭
  • Thank you @DMan for the info! I'll be looking into trying this.

    Iodine has been very helpful with my energy levels. I'm not sure yet how and why it impacts me so much, but I love it. I've yet to receive Butea but will try upon receiving it.

    I've decided to try SARMs just so I can see if that helps in any way in gaining muscle and losing fat. I've begun 20mg Ostarine on nov 5th and will keep at it for 4 weeks. I'm so jaded by my many attempts over the past 4 years that I honestly expect absolutely nothing, but I will try to remain optimistic. I'll play with PCT once this is done, get all my levels tested again, and see where to go from there..

  • Calcium d glucarate might expel all steroid hormones, not just estrogen. Could that be part of the problem if you're megadosing it?https://examine.com/supplements/Calcium-D-Glucarate/

  • @loudonc123 said:
    Calcium d glucarate might expel all steroid hormones, not just estrogen. Could that be part of the problem if you're megadosing it?https://examine.com/supplements/Calcium-D-Glucarate/

    It's definitely not impossible, though not demonstrated yet. Over the 2 months I supplemented CdG, my strength increased slightly as I maintained my weight. If anything, I felt more of a man while supplementing. It might decrease total T but I'd debate it possibly increases free T through flushing what's bad for you. I've stopped for now as I'm taking Ostarine and don't want to mess with its effects.

  • Any updated/thoughts on now having done Ostarine for 2 weeks? Am curious about trying myself.
    Thanks

  • @BPSupplemented said:
    Any updated/thoughts on now having done Ostarine for 2 weeks? Am curious about trying myself.
    Thanks

    I'm not sure. Weight suddenly jumped from ~138lbs to ~145lbs over 10 days as I eat 3k cal a day, which isn't really much. I figure it must be water retention, which sounds odd, as I don't believe Ostarine causes this. Strength has definitely gone up, but I'm making efforts to eat more than usual, so just from muscle memory you'd expect that to happen.

    Besides that, all is fine. I'm sleeping very, very well. No sides at all, except my love handles itch at me like never before. My attention is constantly redirected towards them, I can just feel them non stop and it just won't subside. I've no idea what's causing it and I can't seem to find any such concern online. Is it fat melting, or is it an insane accumulation of fat? I've no idea. I'm worried my T might get more than minimally suppressed and create some estrogen dominance.

    I'm just going go through the whole 4 weeks and report, but up to now, I'm not feeling a omg wow I'm getting shredded effect. We'll see.

  • @Kynarr said:

    I'm not sure. Weight suddenly jumped from ~138lbs to ~145lbs over 10 days as I eat 3k cal a day, which isn't really much. I figure it must be water retention, which sounds odd, as I don't believe Ostarine causes this. Strength has definitely gone up, but I'm making efforts to eat more than usual, so just from muscle memory you'd expect that to happen.

    Besides that, all is fine. I'm sleeping very, very well. No sides at all, except my love handles itch at me like never before. My attention is constantly redirected towards them, I can just feel them non stop and it just won't subside. I've no idea what's causing it and I can't seem to find any such concern online. Is it fat melting, or is it an insane accumulation of fat? I've no idea. I'm worried my T might get more than minimally suppressed and create some estrogen dominance.

    I'm just going go through the whole 4 weeks and report, but up to now, I'm not feeling a omg wow I'm getting shredded effect. We'll see.

    Thats interesting about the itching, maybe it has something to do with more bloodflow to the area? Which vendor did you order the Ostarine from? Maybe can see what they have to say about it.

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