I'm 24 And I Have Low T. I've Tried Everything. Can You Help Me?

13

Comments

  • Letro is the harshest AI ever developed. Bodybuilders taking 2,000+mgs/week of test only take it as a last resort. Why not just go on TRT? 1,000,000x safer than letro.

  • @Jason Hooper said:
    Letro is the harshest AI ever developed. Bodybuilders taking 2,000+mgs/week of test only take it as a last resort. Why not just go on TRT? 1,000,000x safer than letro.

    Thank you, I appreciate the information. The reason I won't go on androgel is that I have not found a single report of a post prophecia/finasteride/accutane victim who was cured by TRT. It seems that the issue is more complex than just supplementing T. Besides, I've been taking supplements to boost T for two years to absolutely no avail, and my E/SHBG is already high, such that there's no way supplementing T in this way won't bite me in the ass unless paired with AIs/SERMs/HCG.

    I'm aware that reducing E too much could cause joint pain, but I figure this is a small risk vs the potential benefit. I'm not considering taking such compound for the rest of my life, I just want to try it and see if it helps me in any way. I've played with DIM and Calcium D Glucarate recently, but these aren't nearly as potent, so my experience in this niche domain is very limited still, and I've just recently learned that DIM/I3C would be a DHT inhibitor... which, well, is probably the worst for me. Toremifene sounds interesting too, but I'm not sure that's available to me through conventional means.

    There's even a category regarding usage on men on wikipedia for Anastrozole. Can't be that bad, right..? I mean, certainly not as bad as the damage from Accutane...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastrozole

    Mind you, I'm all confused right now. Up until three months ago, my knowledge of hormones and any drug relating to them was limited to herp derp testosterone estrogen. I'm learning as fast as I can and I'm trying to make connections to my particular issues, but with how many thousands of reports there are of people who's life seem to be forever screwed because of a stupid drug, I don't even know if I'll find solution, but I want to find one, and I'm giving it everything I have here, including, possibly, making my situation worse through different trials. Hopefully that's only temporary. Assuming my glands aren't completely screwed up, there has to be a way to restart my HPTA..

  • Here is what I see:

    You have some data that would indicate that your testosterone is lower than what you want. Your e2 is within range, even proportionally. You are operating under the assumption that this is caused by taking accutane and that by reducing e2, you will have more testosterone.

    There isn't really a good way to test your primary assumption. If you had data showing that your test levels were fine before taking accutane and then could establish an inverse relationship between the two, you may have something. Otherwise, you are just guessing.

    Your secondary assumption is that by lowering estrogen, your body will make more testosterone. You have tried some "nautral" compounds to help you metabolize estrogen, but now you seem to want to use aromatase inhibitors instead.

    You do not want to go on testosterone, because you don't see it as a cure, although you are fine with cycling AIs indefinitely (I'm not sure you realize that when you discontinue most AIs, you will have estrogen rebound and then you will be worse off then when you started). When you rebound, you will have some major side effects. You will be in pain. Your joints will hurt, your mussels will be dry and weak, body temperature will be everywhere, gynecomastia, psychological sides, liver damage and so on.

    You want more testosterone. Why not just take testosterone and cut out the middle man? There will be less side effects, and you will get to where you want to be much faster. Yeah, you are probably going to have to be on it forever, but that's the shake. You can accept that, or keep believing in the "Muscle Tech" hype of "naturally raising" you test by 200-400 points. It's not going to happen. What I don't get is that you have demonstrated outstanding discipline in your lifestyle and diet choices over the past few years (I would put you into the top 0.1 percentile if you are telling the truth about the stuff you've done), but you take anecdotal reports of dudes posting stuff on the internet over actual clinical data. These AIs were not designed to do what you are wanting to do with them. That cannot even be prescribed as "off label" for that in most prescribing accountability systems.

    I wasn't going to say anything because I don't even know you ,but once you started posting about taking letro and now I feel compelled to intervene because you are entering into that zone where you need a reality check. Before, you were trying to eat broccoli, or whatever, to cure your low T, okay. It probably won't work, but you are not going to hurt yourself, or anyone else who reads your post tries to mimic your experiment. Now, you are on another level and you need to get back to reality.

    I'm sorry for writing this. I wish I could have established a more positive relationship first beforehand, but as they say, "it is what it is." In any case, I hope you find your solution.

  • I was in the same boat for awhile. Here is what finally worked for me. Life Extension Supermiraforte to block the aromatase from converting your T into estrogen. Tribulus Terrestris (1000mg x 90 capsules, 95% Steroidal Saponins, 80% Protodioscin) to boost T levels. That worked as well as T shots for me. If that doesn't help, research topical progesterone, dhea, d-aspartic acid and pregnenolone. They were next on my list but I ended up not needing them.

  • Jason HooperJason Hooper ✭✭✭
    edited January 15

    ^ This is exactly what I am talking about. Some brand new user creates an account to plug some wonder supplements that "worked as well as T shots." There is no verifiable data, nothing substantial at all except for a promise that these medical supplements work as well as TRT. So now, people are going to try these supps from Amazon (@ ~$100/month), and if that doesn't work, hit up a compound pharmacist to create some sort of topical miracle cream (that will probably set you back another $200-$300/month) that is again, unverifiable and unsubstantiated. You know what is 100% absolutely verifiable and scientifically backed? Testosterone undecanoate. It raises test levels in 100% of the people who use it 100% of the time.

    You already tried most of the "natural" estrogen reducing compounds on the market and probably spent a good deal of money too. How well did they work? What are the chances that these compounds will do any better? How about some of that fancy Muscle Tech?

  • dazdaz today is a good day ✭✭✭
    edited January 16

    Just a couple of observations on some past comments,

    @Kynarr said:
    ... The reason I won't go on androgel is that I have not found a single report of a post prophecia/finasteride/accutane victim who was cured by TRT.

    It seems that the issue is more complex than just supplementing T.

    ^ you say this, but you still seem to be wanting to raise your T. (?)

    @Kynarr said:
    ... Besides, I've been taking supplements to boost T for two years to absolutely no avail,
    and my E/SHBG is already high, such that there's no way supplementing T in this way won't bite me in the ass unless paired with AIs/SERMs/HCG.

    ^ correct me if I am wrong, so far nothing you have done has raised your T.

    fake it till you make it

  • edited January 16

    @Kynarr said:
    Estradiol 84 pmol/L (ref 36-220)

    @bam86 said:
    Also, your estradiol is high at 84, 25 is a better number.

    Dude your estradiol is 84 pmol/l which converts to 22.88 pg/ml. You dont have high estrogen so taking a AI would make matters so much worse. Be careful with conversions of units.

  • @Jason Hooper
    Thank you for taking the time to reply with such detail. No need to establish a positive relationship first, I'm posting here to debate my situation and how best to approach it, not necessarily to be told I'm right. I had blindly assumed my E was high, but I understand from your confirmation and that of @BPSupplemented that it is in fact within range, so really, my issue seems to be limited to low T, high-ish SHBG, along with low LH/FSH signaling.

    I'm pretty far down the rabbit whole right now. I'm not denying this. As you say, I've demonstrated outstanding discipline ever since 2013, and I assure you all that I've written here is in fact true. That's precisely what discourages me so much. That so much effort has gone into my health, for just about no result. There's my many health issues, but there's also simple things, such as, say, you might expect I'd reasonably have gained more than 10 pounds of muscle over 4 years of relentless attempts at gaining mass. That maybe, right as I'm typing this, my face shouldn't literally feel like sand paper, in spite of doing everything I know to fix my permanent dry skin. That maybe just once in my life, I could go through a meditation or yoga session, and be able to breathe through my nose, and not be concerned with this dry canyon that is my persistent chronic rhinitis. Maybe I shouldn't always destroy my shoulders and knees by doing anything more than just walking. Maybe I shouldn't always be bloated, no matter what I eat, no matter if I fast. Maybe.. Maybe. How absurd? I'm 24 goddammit.

    I'm at that point where I'll try just about anything that doesn't outright kill me, if it might help. I don't believe in miracle pills, and certainly would never follow the advice of people recommending proprietary products that sell for hundreds of dollars. In fact, many, many Accutane victims seem to go down paths that I would never conceive getting into. One such example is LDN. No doubt it might be good, but to think that paying hundreds of dollars for this little compound would suddenly fix all my issues.. eh, I don't think so. I've dabbled with many ideas. Epitalon for my likely very short Telomeres (based on other Accutane users, one 19yo has the length of a 90yo...), MK-677 for HGH. There's so many things to try, but time flies by and every attempt gives me more knowledge, but helps very little, if at all.

    I won't request that you go read thousands of posts regarding Prophecia/Finasteride/Accutane related issues, as that's obviously my problem and my responsibility, but I would find it very defeatist to claim that just because I don't have absolute, irrefutable proof that my hormones weren't already this way prior to Accutane, that the cause is not, in fact, Accutane. I believe there's enough people with the exact same issues as me, and enough studies showing resolute proof of the long term damage of Accutane, to claim with little doubt that my issues indeed stem from Accutane. I might not have been ready to accept this reality back when I first posted here three months back, as I maybe wanted to believe it was I who wasn't giving it enough heart and sweat, but I admit today, that I give it more than anyone else I know, without result.

    I am taking your thoughts into consideration, and might give Androgel a try come February. Again, my reasoning behind AIs comes from the countless reports I have of similar victims reaping no particular results from TRT, with many reports of people reporting feeling better from AIs. This brief link is the generally accepted principle among this community, I believe:

    Hormone Replacement -- typically a last resort for many men after exhausting all other options. For those with hypogonadal/low Testosterone levels that do not respond to aforementioned treatments (Clomiphene, Tamoxifen, hCG), Testosterone Replacement Therapy (creams, injections) is usually the next and final step, either alone or in conjunction with hCG to maintain fertility. Some men also opt to try DHT replacement (creams, tablets, injections) at this stage, as DHT supplementation alone may surpress the axis if the individual is not on TRT. As with any treatment, response to TRT + DHT and symptomatic improvement is highly variable.
    http://www.propeciahelp.com/treatments

    If Letrozole (which I've yet to read much about besides the report from a member who increased his T dramatically) is too dangerous, then what about Anastrozole? What about Clomid, or Tamoxifen, or HCG? Could these be more reasonable last-ditch attempts before going on TRT for possibly the rest of my life?

    Again, thank you so much for your help.

  • @daz
    Precisely. Nothing I have done seems to have raised my T. Nothing. This makes me question whether TRT would do anything at all. I guess.. in the end, there is only one way to know.

  • KynarrKynarr
    edited January 16

    Lastly, here is the post made by the user who was helped by Letro. You'll see just about the exact same E2 and T levels that I have, and then the results after taking Letro. It's just one reference, no study, no nothing.. but that to me, is a pretty significant difference, and his conclusion, as follows: So whatever the AI is doing to spike T levels, I3C isn’t doing, seems to indicate that my DIM/I3C/CdG experience is not to be taken as a reference.
    http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7548&start=180#p97615

  • I have coached a lot of people who took Accutane during their teen years for acne and made permanent changes to expressions in their HTPA axis pathways. I know it sucks, but taking letro will make it suck worse. You think you have dry skin now? Anyway, if you want to go down the e2 route, go with Tamoxifen first. It will raise your test levels for about a month before they level off again, but the side effects will be lower than the others. Some people stack it with Clomid, but in your case, you are not really dealing with that much e2, so that would be overkill. Once you go off of the estrogen ancillaries, you will be back to square one. No permanent changes will be made. If you want to go with an AI, I would suggest Aromasin over Arimidex (and defiantly over letro) because it is easier on the liver according to peer-reviewed studies. Before you start messing with HCG, you need to get your LH levels done. If they are in range, don't mess with it unless you are on TRT and want to start having kids. Then only take it so long as you need to, then taper off. You don't want to start desensitizing your body to LH.

    Androgel will raise your test. That is what it was designed to do. If you want a more accurate dose, less sides, and a smoother ride, consider doing one 1,000mg injection every ten weeks of testosterone undecanoate. If you are afraid of needles, the gel will work too, but either of these options is way safer and will have far fewer side effects than anything in my first paragraph and your success rate is guaranteed. I don't know why you are treating it as a last resort when it should be your first resort.

  • KynarrKynarr
    edited January 17

    @Jason Hooper
    Thank you again for the added information. You seem knowledgeable in regards to my situation. I hope you can be bothered one last time with a few questions should I go forward with TRT.

    This one report from a 28yo (see link below) with low T had convinced me that I had hormone issues. It made me cry, that's how much I associated with his story. Exact same situation as me. Years of effort for no reward. He first went on hCG PRIOR to TRT, with the reasoning being that hCG mimics LH to stimulate T production. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my Dec 2016 LH: 1.1 Ul/L appears very low. Might it be a good idea to try this, assuming there is some way somehow to restart my HTPA axis? Could stimulating LH be a good idea in this instance?
    http://ironandtweed.com/my-low-t-journey-one-year-on-trt/

    Let's say I go on with TRT androgel (as I highly doubt Testosterone undecanoate is available here in Canada or that the Andrologist will even know about it, but I'll ask..), am I absolutely forced to be on it for the rest of my life?

    What happens if I stop after 3 months to see how I do? Will my natural T production be even lower for the rest of my life? Does some form of PCT or HPTA reset work? Would it be possible that going on TRT for a while followed by PCT, somehow resets my system and fixes my current issue? One thing I'm really afraid of, is to go down a permanent path when there might be a fix somewhere else. Obviously I'm tired of my situation, but it would pain me to screw my hormones further only to learn two years from now that X thing would have fixed me for good.

    Does TRT affect aging and longevity negatively? This to me is also a very important factor to consider.

    Is there any compound or drug that should be paired with TRT, from day one? My local Andrologist just wants me to take Androgel and that's it, but then she doesn't even test for E2 going forward, doesn't even know what DHT is, believes training doesn't impact hormones. It's hard to not feel like I'm going down the same road that my Dermatologist put me in at 19yo.. and we know how that went..

    I'd love to answer these questions myself through researching, but the more I read, the more contradicting info I find. I'm unsure who and what to trust. I'm meeting with the Andrologist on Jan 30th and will begin whatever treatment on that day, though I do have the Androgel prescription already, so could start this whenever..

    Hope you can help.

  • I totally get it. I have had multiple clients in tears because of their frustration (and they were suffering from depression because of HTPA imbalances) all from Accutane. They all want a solution that will permanently restore their genetics. There are anecdotal reports of people trying some unusual treatments and getting results, but there is no clinic evidence of this. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not, but from a clinical standpoint, the degree of evidence does not support clinical practice.

    The reality that you are going to have to accept is that you took Accutane, it messed you up, and now you are going to have to supplement forever. It sucks, but you know what would suck worse? If there was no treatment at all. So, it's all about perspective. Your LH does look a little low. If you were going to do an HCG protocol, it would be somewhere between 500-1000UI of sub-dermal HCG three times a week. after that you will have to taper back and continue from six weeks to a year. HCG is a hard molecule to stabilize. it needs to be refrigerated, and it comes really concentrated, so it is hard to dose. For many people, it will raise E2 to unhealthy levels, so watch it closely and have an AI handy. The risks are high, the treatment could take an entire year, and it is an expensive treatment. It's also a long shot, so it most likely will not be a permanent fix. Your testosterone will go up proportionately to the HCG you take, so it will look like it's working until you stop. Then, even with a good taper, you may have rebound. Your LH is a little low, but do you have any other symptoms? Are your testicles undersized? Low sex drive? Constipated? Prone to weight gain? Some of these symptoms overlap with low-T too, so it's hard to really know for sure.

    If you go on TRT, you will be on TRT until you decide to stop. The data on TRT and longevity goes back and forth. I think that it depends on a lot of other factors like methylation pathways, but it wouldn't be much different than if your body naturally made that amount of testosterone on it's own. There is some data showing that people with naturally higher testosterone have slightly shorter lifespans than those with low-T, and other data that shows the complete opposite, but let's say that it takes six months off of your life. Is it worth it to have a higher quality of life while you are here? It's kind of a hard question, but that is a decision you will have to think about.

    If they come up with a clinically proven way to permanently fix your problem, you can always come off the TRT and begin the proven treatment. There are a lot of people who took/are taking Accutane. I have seen experimental treatments involving retinol isomers, optical light therapy, and a bunch of other stuff, but if it were me, I would rather get better now rather than later. Until I had some proof that it would work, I wouldn't waste my time and money on somebodies theory. Eventually, someone will solve it, but which one is right? I would let the researchers figure it out first, but that's just me. The fastest way between two points is a straight line. Why travel in circles if you know where you want to go?

  • This reassures me a bit. I've been sitting on the prescription for a month.. I've considered and tried just about everything to maybe avoid going forward with this, but I think, after 4 years of constant struggle, it's time to at least give it a try. I've begun 5g of 1% androgel this morning, so I understand 50mg of T per day. I'll keep researching, see how I feel, and maybe taper off after some time just to see how my hormones do.

    hCG sounds a bit more complex and frankly, I don't have the energy to wait out a whole year to see what that treatment does. I'll try it later possibly. I've discussed it with the local pharmacist this morning, and she knew of it, but they don't have it. Something to back order apparently. She said the same as you, that worst case, I can just get off TRT. I appreciate knowing that walking away from this treatment wouldn't damage me like Accutane did.

    My testies are fine I believe. Sex drive is very unstable, and if it weren't for no porn/fap + semen retention.. man, I probably wouldn't have much libido haha. Nope, never constipated, quite the contrary thanks to Accutane destroying my stomach. I'm naturally skinny, used to be at least, you know, this skinny fit guy that can eat however much he wants and never gain weight. Since Accutane, I'm still skinny, just.. skinny fat. I'll just not worry about LH for now and get it tested later.

    This is not the end of this, just the beginning I'm sure, but hey, if it helps for now, I'll take it. Let's go with a straight line for the time being ^^. Thank you so much for your help.

  • 50mg QD seems high. Is that what was prescribed to you?

  • Yes. I understand this to be the minimum amount for Androgel 1%. I can inquire more on Jan 30th however and maybe get a pump. I know nothing in regards to T dosages currently.. I'll have to read up. In regards to the injection you recommended.. why every 10 weeks? What I've read from the link below is that Androgel is possibly not ideal because of its uneven absorption (though it mimics high T in the morning that tapers over the day..), + contact with other humans (and my cat I assume), however it also claims that injections should be as frequent as possible because otherwise T just lowers everyday until the next injection. Is Testosterone undecanoate somehow different and better? If I'm going to be on TRT, my goal obviously is to have the better kind and as little sides and risks as possible. I view Androgel as an entry point, not necessarily the TRT I'll stay on.

    http://ironandtweed.com/lowtestosterone-com-my-experience-finding-optimal-treatment/

  • KynarrKynarr
    edited February 1

    Little update on my 15th day of TRT. I've finally obtained my Dec 2016 E2 result; 146 pmol/L, from 84 in june. Something I did between June and Dec lowered my total T (505 to 434), and almost doubled my E2. Might be some remnants of MK-2866. My next blood test will be mid-march, so we'll get to know how Androgel helps me. I'll be taking 1g of CdG daily this month to maybe help keep my E2 in check, along with usual supplements such as vit C and vit D, but nothing else that would strongly affect my hormones.

    I think I'm doing better, but nothing much to write home about. Mentally I feel just fine, and physically not any different than usual. Libido hasn't improved at all, if anything it might be lower. I've gained ~6 pounds over the past two weeks and am effectively up to 152 from ~135 3 months back. Strength has definitely increased and I look in better shape. People started commenting on me looking in shape just one week into TRT. Odd.

    I maintain some hope that this is it. I understand it takes a couple weeks to fully take effect so I'll just be patient for now.

    I met the andrologist a second time this Monday and she showed me the door after 2 minutes. Did not care to discuss, just wanted to be sure I wasn't dying. I obtained the contact to what appears to be the most knowledgeable Endocrinologist locally. It's private so I'll have to pay, but I'll get in touch with him ASAP.

    I've obtained a meeting with a neurologist this Friday. I will request for a CT Scan and verify how my pituitary gland looks.

  • @Kynarr I hope you figure it out. That sounds unbearable!

  • dazdaz today is a good day ✭✭✭
    edited February 9

    Is your Vitamin D level low...

    "Vitamin D treatment improves levels of sexual hormones, metabolic parameters and erectile function in middle-aged vitamin D deficient men." (Jan 2017).
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28074679
    Note, they used Ergocalciferol (Vitamin D2) in this study. I'm guessing that D3 would have worked just as well, if not better (?).

    " Results:
    Patients' mean age was 53.2 ± 10.4 years. Serum VD exhibited significant increments (p <0.001) from baseline (15.16 ± 4.64 ng/mL), to 3 (31.90 ± 15.99 ng/mL), 6 (37.23 ± 12.42 ng/mL), 9 (44.88 ± 14.49 ng/mL) and 12 months (48.54 ± 11.62 ng/mL), and there was significant stepladder increases in both serum TT level (12.46 ± 3.30 to 15.99 ± 1.84 nmol/L) and erectile function scores (13.88 ± 3.96 to 20.25 ± 3.24) (p <0.001 for both). We also observed significant stepladder decreases in estradiol (87.90 ± 27.16 to 69.85 ± 14.80 pmol/L, p = 0.001), PTH (from 58.52 ± 28.99 to 38.33 ± 19.44 pg/mL, p <0.001) and HbA1c levels (7.41 ± 2.85 to 6.66 ± 1.67%, p = 0.001). Mean BMI significantly decreased from 33.91 ± 6.67 to 33.14 ± 6.35 kg/m2 (p = 0.001); and PSA values significantly increased from 0.59 ± 0.30 to 0.82 ± 0.39 ng/mL (p <0.001) at the end of the 12 months' follow-up. There were no changes in LH levels. "

    fake it till you make it

  • @SophieSR Thank you, I appreciate that. Maybe TRT is it... we'll see soon.

    @daz I supplement 4k IU a day and my levels were pretty high this summer. I know post-Accutane victims especially tend to have very low vit D. I've made sure this is not the case for me. Thank you for your help and support though! :smile:

    -

    The neurologist hasn't been able to help me further than to suggest migraines with aura are mostly genetic, with no known cure besides taking anti-migraine pills daily for the rest of my life, or anti-inflammatory drugs such as Naproxen. He had no use for a CT Scan, so on to the Endocrinologist I go for further testing!

  • KynarrKynarr
    edited March 31

    I've been on Androgel for a bit over two months now. Here are the hormone results from March 23rd.

    Testosterone is up slightly to 549 (19).
    SHBG is down to 40.
    Estradiol is down to 73.

    I'll suppose that my E is down due to taking 500mg Calcium D-Glucarate every evening. It is a slight improvement, but overall it IS an improvement. My shape has improved a little bit. I'm a bit more awake, certainly more aggressive and able to do things. It is just not what I was looking for though. At 25, keeping myself healthy, supplementing Testosterone... 549 T is a joke. Most importantly, I don't feel right.

    I've read The Definitive Testosterone Replacement Therapy, and will be following its guidelines and switch to injections asap. I want to start with Undecanoate and eventually take Propionate once I'm used to injections.

    I'll as usual take any guidance I can from you guys. All my physical issues haven't improved.

  • I'm curious. Do you have a therapist/psychologist? If yes what do they think?

    Make, [then,] thyself to grow to the same stature as the Greatness which transcends all measure; leap forth from every body; transcend all Time; become Eternity; and [thus] shalt thou know God. Conceiving nothing is impossible unto thyself, think thyself deathless and able to know all,—all arts, all sciences, the way of every life.  – Corpus Hermeticum XI “The Mind of Hermes”

  • @Bull of Heaven What are you suggesting? My experience with mental health specialists is that they tend to lead a lower quality of life than I do, and their suggestions are limited to their scope of reality, and tend to be very general. I don't particularly like them. I don't see why the opinion of such individual would matter. Best case scenario, a cognitive behavioral therapy would seek to reconcile mental issues with physical issues, and learn to let go, to accept the scenario. I'm not accepting it. I won't accept it. I'm working to fix this, and I will fix it.

  • Jason HooperJason Hooper ✭✭✭

    Coincidently, I have spoken with several people who were on TRT since my last post in this thread. All of them started out on androgel and it didn't work for any of them. They all switched to an injectable form and it improved their test levels. I thought testosterone undecanoate would be a good option because the injection frequency is the lowest of all trt medications, however most of the people I talked to are on cypionate (one is on enanthate).

  • KynarrKynarr
    edited April 1

    @Jason Hooper
    That's good to hear. I really hope this works the same for me. I'll have to wait a bit though.. next meeting is in late April. I inquired locally and private endocrinologists charge ~300$ for a single meeting. I just can't do that. I'll look more into Cypionate. Thank you for your help!

  • @Kynarr I am not sure what I was suggesting. Since the beginning of this thread I have had questions drafted to post and I delete them before posting.

    I know next to nothing in relation to this thread, except the information presented in this thread. This thread and when I consider human health in general, I think whats physical and what is psychological/mental. Where do they meet, whats the relationship? I still visit this forum just to get bits of data relating to questioning that relationship. Either way, before I delete this I'll just say. I hope you get well. And I hope I can control myself from posting nonsense questions in your thread which do not relate or help you to meet your goals.

    Make, [then,] thyself to grow to the same stature as the Greatness which transcends all measure; leap forth from every body; transcend all Time; become Eternity; and [thus] shalt thou know God. Conceiving nothing is impossible unto thyself, think thyself deathless and able to know all,—all arts, all sciences, the way of every life.  – Corpus Hermeticum XI “The Mind of Hermes”

  • @Bull of Heaven I appreciate the clarification. I believe one's mental state can be very closely related to physical issues, if not outright caused by it. I can attest to the fact that my migraines with aura, for instance, tend to be directly correlated to my stress level throughout the day. I do believe however that certain physical issues can be completely independent from mental issues, as is the case with my hormone issues here. No quality of mental well being will shoot my T levels up. Many people (professionals, friends, acquaintances, family, partners) have suggested in the past that my IBS symptoms, for example, were all in my head. It's very hurtful when people dismiss the possibility that certain issues are real, and not just the creation of one's mind. I'm not suggesting that's what you did; just trying to give you a bit of clarity in regards to your questioning.

  • Started subcutaneous enanthate today. 80mg once per week. The dose will possibly be increased a bit once I get blood results in mid-june. I maintain hope that this might be it. Over 3 months of Androgel ultimately proved pointless. I'm no better than I was.

  • Sleeping more than 6.5 hours a night can wreck your neurochemistry. Cortisol rises with sleep, it's a peak in cortisol that wakes us up so if you sleep more than 6.5 hours (the amount associated with lowest mortality and morbidity) you get high AM cortisol. Prolactin also raises with sleep so you have been spiking your prolactin and cortisol, both of which can affect your T levels... BTW, congrats on sperm retention. You might not notice it now, but as you get older, you will have more drive, libido and energy then men half your age... That assumes your not doing the million dollar point though as while that will keep your sperm it, orgasms still crash dopamine and testosterone.

  • Haven't had time to read the entire thread, but have environmental factors also been considered? Toxic mold seems like it could cause all of your symptoms.

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