Gelatin as an alternative to Casein for slow-digesting protein?

cortextcortext ✭✭
edited November 2016 in The Bulletproof Diet

I was reading these articles on the rates of digestion for different proteins / protein blends:

http://www.nutrabio.com/product/MM/
http://www.jimstoppani.com/home/articles/supplement-research-update-protein

Casein looks pretty awesome as a way to keeping amino acids and MPS stimulated for a longer duration, where it doesn't take much whey added on top to hit an optimal target.

I'm curious, if I made a chocolate jello with gelatin + chocolate whey protein isolate + cacao powder (or maybe Vanilla Whey + gelatin + pomegranate juice) if I could emulate a slow digesting casein protein. Any idea how well this would work compared to the gold standard Whey+Casein blend?

Another idea is to include some soluble fiber + some fat into the mix to further slow it down. Maybe Gelatin + Psyllium (or something less inflammatory -- chia, flax, acacia fiber, apple / citrus pectin, I'm not sure what's ideal) + nut butter + whey might work even better?

I did find this article for older individuals:
http://ergo-log.com/strength-training-collagen-supplement.html

Comments

  • Hmm, I was looking at a gelatinized block of whey as a means to emulate a whey+casein blend via slower digesting whey, and not so much as a standalone collagen supplement for muscle growth. It sounds like Whey + Casein would still work much better?

  • cortextcortext ✭✭
    edited November 2016

    That is a good question.

    I've been doing workouts usually fasted (I've tried it a bunch later in the day or with some sort of carb or protein beforehand, but I still feel better this way.) Lately, I'm tacking on BCAAs intra-workout, so it's not a true fast. Then, post-workout I'm hitting Whey Isolate, followed by meat in my meals and 5g of creatine somewhere in the day. On Cronometer, I seem to be up in the 120-150g/d protein range.

    I was looking at tacking on a different protein source than the whey and stumbled across those Micellar Casein / Whey + Casein supplements and blends which got my wheels spinning, since I already have Collagen and Gelatin powder. I've been eating in ~an 8hr window for insulin-sensitizing / autophagy benefits.

    I've been thinking about switching out the BCAAs with an EAA + Extras blend like this one, although I'm turned off by the Ace-K + Sucralose + Artificial sweeteners: http://www.nutrabio.com/product/INTRA/

  • cortextcortext ✭✭
    edited November 2016

    @Jason Miller said:
    How much do you weigh?

    155lb @ 5'10 and maybe 10% BF. Lately my deadlifts are at 315.

  • cortextcortext ✭✭
    edited November 2016

    Got it, maybe I'll loosen up my eating window closer to a normal 12hr window (~9am - 9pm) and see if I can push up into the 160-170lb range over the next 3mo... maybe with PWO whey and casein before bed -- I'm kind of anti-casein in theory (most of the health stuff I read about it paints it in a negative light), but it does seem like a good tool for this anabolic goal. I've read that it keeps amino acids up for a good 7-8hrs.

    9am is actually pretty early for me to eat a breakfast, where I'm usually not hungry at all until 10am-11am, and I'm easily done eating for the day by 5-6pm (the sun sets right now around 4:30pm)... 8pm if I'm really eating all day long.

  • dazdaz today is a good day ✭✭✭
    edited November 2016

    I think calcium caseinate is the cheapest form of casein, & may be one you want to avoid...that's the form that 'kills all the rats'...

    ...ok I'm being melodramatic,
    tho I do vaguely recall something relating to cancer/rat studies and calcium caseinate.

    fake it till you make it

  • cortextcortext ✭✭
    edited November 2016

    I found this article on casein:
    https://draxe.com/casein-protein/

    "Casein protein powder is created in a lab from dehydrating parts of milk — the problem is that many forms are denatured and isolated, and may cause health issues. You’ll want to try to find casein protein that is from A2 beta-casein rather than A1 casein (see “Different Types of Casein Protein” below). You can usually find it in most health food stores and might come across a variety of flavors. When you buy and consume casein, look for A2 casein from organic and grass-fed cows or goats."

    Is that even a thing -- organic, grass-fed A2 casein powder?

    Aside from the carcinogenic concerns (which actually seem pretty legitimate, I think Denise Minger had a good write up), and inflammatory concerns, I've read a lot about worsening lipids (lower HDL, higher LDL, more atherogenic forms of LDL, higher cholesterol absorption, lower LDL clearance, etc.) It also seems to bind up polyphenols in the diet.

  • cortextcortext ✭✭
    edited November 2016

    So, I bit the bullet and ramped up my Pre, ramped up calories + carbs, dialed my workout intensity up to max, and threw a Micellar Casein (A1) heavy protein mix in as a Post workout. Feels bad, haha. I'm hoping it's just the weather or I'm dehydrated and not some sort of odd sensitivity issue. I've got some metabolic work scheduled for the end of the month for my annual physical, so I'm looking at this as a good opportunity to see what 4wks of MCT / Casein / Hypercaloric dieting does under the hood.

  • @Jason Miller said:
    Collagen is one of the worst proteins for muscle growth, like, really bad. Take it for tissues like skin and joints etc.

    I take gelatin more or less for my gut lining, connective tissue, and skin... (Will probably order collagen when the gelatin runs out)...

    But this statement you make worries me... Do you mean it is "bad for muscle growth" in terms of merely being ineffective for muscle growth, or actually inhibiting it?

  • I have some questions:

    1) Why do we need slow digesting protein? Why can't we just take more whey? The more whey you take, the longer it takes to digest.
    2) There seems to be a balancing act with mTOR and protein synthesis. Are there any studies, or practices that look at how to achieve the best balance?
    3) If you look at whey and casein amino profiles and do a side-by-side comparison, is there any argument to be made that casein is in the same league as whey?
    4) Milk proteins are about 20% whey and 80% casein. Are we sure that the supplement industry isn't just tricking us into paying money for the junk left over after making whey?

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