Choline Dominance?

In a recent podcast I heard Dave briefly mention choline dominance  and how it occurs in about a third of the population. What exactly is the science behind it? How could I test myself to see if I am choline dominant or not?


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Comments

  • I just listened to the podcast with Abel James ("Fat Burning Man") with Dave as guest - it goes more into detail about Choline and testing yourself.


  • hzahza ✭✭

    Thanks for mentioning that interview.  Anybody interested can find it here:  http://www.fatburningman.com/interview-with-dave-asprey-of-bulletproofexec-com-podcast-video/


     


     


    A look around the googles shows that Dave has a link to it somewhere here, too.


  • suntouchersuntoucher Uninspired Potential ✭✭✭
    The protocol he mentioned was simply to get Alpha GPC (or some other good choline source) and test at some standard dosages and see if you get the tension/headachy symptoms.
  • ACH85ACH85 ✭✭

    I've been wondering about this myself. I've been messing around with Alpha Brain (which contains Alpha GPC and is specifically focussed on boosting choline) and my results are confounding: I get a slight headache, but no tension, and I feel good and seem more motivated. I do Lumosity brain games, and don't see a benefit on 1 pill. I took 2 pills only once, and on that day I posted nearly double my best score on a math game, but couldn't handle the word games nearly as well as without the Alpha Brain. 


     


    I'm also a vegetarian so I eat 4 eggs a day, which probably gives me a boost of choline on its own. 


     


    Anyone thinking they may be choline dominant and trying Alpha Brain? Anyone know how much choline you get from eggs? I read somewhere it has trouble crossing the blood brain barrier. 

  • ACH85ACH85 ✭✭
    edited March 2013
    So I did more research. I think the link hza posted earlier is to a different podcast Dave did with Fat Burning Man. I found the smart drug conversation at minute 30 of this podcast. The choline dominance conversation comes a few minutes later, but (at least in my browser) I can't fast forward past minute 31.


    Apparently it's ACETYLcholine dominance we need to worry about, though choline is a precurser. Choline is found in our diet and is used in the synthesis of cell membranes (Wikipedia) and is the primary component of the myelin sheaths that surround our neurons (Dave, in the linked podcast.) Acetylcholine is a neurotransmitter synthesized in the brain using choline, and is the neurotransmitter that many smart drugs act on.


    The solutions for acetylcholine dominance are the racetams, like aniracetam aka Upgraded Brain. Racetams use up your stores of choline. Dave also mentions hydergine in the podcast, which is an extract of the ergot fungus, though he doesn't explain whether it moderates the acetylcholine dominance issue, or if it removes choline.


    Dave mentions jaw tension as a symptom of acetylcholine dominance, and I've had low-grade jaw tension for years, perhaps worse while eating so many eggs. I plan to test Alpha Brain and Upgraded Brain back to back on different days or weeks, and research hydergine.


    By the way, I made two other comments above that I need to modify based on what I've learned since then:


    - 4 eggs/day: this should come close to the daily value of choline, as Wikipedia lists 1 large hardboiled egg as 113mg of choline, while the RDA is 550mg for males over 18.


    - Choline and the blood/brain barrier: I don't remember where I read this, can't find it, so that comment above should be ignored.
  • suntouchersuntoucher Uninspired Potential ✭✭✭
    "Solutions for acetylcholine dominance" -> it is not a "problem." But if your jaw tension increases when you eat eggs, then you are likely AcH (funny re your nickname) dominant. However, I've wasn't able to find anyone else mention this concept. But the idea that some people need more choline, some less, makes sense.

    Just get some -racetam that you like, and try it out. You'll either feel worse off or not when taking a choline source along with it.

    Bruxism is no fun, though! So, it might be a very neat supplement for you.

    I use Acetyl-L-Carnitine as my choline source with Aniracetam. But I don't really feel worse off if I don't take it.
  • ACH85ACH85 ✭✭

    ACH are my initials, but yeah I didn't notice that. And yes, I plan to get in on the March 18th distribution of Upgraded Brain aniracetam. I'm certainly a mild case of bruxism, but I've noticed it on and off during stressful times since high school. I do think it's been made worse by the eggs, but not eating meat I need the eggs for protein. I've eliminated most stress in my life, which is why I'm thinking it's the choline. 


     


    And btw I'm totally on-board with eating meat, but I've been a vegetarian since I was 2, so on top of digestion issues it seriously grosses me out. Selectively following Dave's advice I've added b12, k2, lots of grass-fed butter, and fermented cod liver oil pills, hoping I can get by. It's certainly a huge improvement, but I'll resort to meat if I can't meet my health goals over the next year. 


  • so I take aniracetam, I get headaches and no real effects. Am I choline dominant?


    Should I get some supplement choline?


    Does it matter much which kind of choline?


     


    Thx


  • suntouchersuntoucher Uninspired Potential ✭✭✭
    edited March 2013


    so I take aniracetam, I get headaches and no real effects. Am I choline dominant?
    Should I get some supplement choline?
    Does it matter much which kind of choline?
     

     


    You probably need extra choline (not choline dominant; or taking too much Ani.). Alpha GPC is a good choice.


  • hzahza ✭✭

    So, if you're not choline-dominant, but you supplement with choline anyway, what negative effects might that lead to?


  • edited March 2013

    So, if you're not choline-dominant, but you supplement with choline anyway, what negative effects might that lead to?


     


    Brain fog or jaw tension. It's possible that you might even feel drowsy. I've heard some people say that they think their drowsiness is due to choline. Though this isn't verified in anyway. Drowsiness/brain fog could also be your brain adapting to the ani, which takes time (2 weeks to a month is what I'm guessing). I've found that the racetam/choline stack takes a lot of experimenting and dedication to find the sweet spot.


  • took som choline bitrate (600mg) just before the Ani, and the headache is definetly milder as are the jaw tension. there are however shitloads of diffrent choline variations so might try CDB or GPC. so much info so little time,.


  • So a person who is choline dominant does not need to take Xtra choline,.? any other supplements


    Reason I ask is cause I still got some major jaw tension going on. Upped the choline to like 900 mg cause I figuerd I needed some more (headaches) prop. not a good idea.

  • So a person who is choline dominant does not need to take Xtra choline,.? any other supplements


    Reason I ask is cause I still got some major jaw tension going on. Upped the choline to like 900 mg cause I figuerd I needed some more (headaches) prop. not a good idea.


     


    Jaw tension is a sign of too much choline.


     


    In hindsight, I read hza's question wrong. Disregard my answer to that.

  • hzahza ✭✭

    Jaw tension is a sign of too much choline.


     


    In hindsight, I read hza's question wrong. Disregard my answer to that.




    In hindsight, I may have written my question wrong.  I think what I meant was what would happen if you ARE choline dominant and then take choline on top of that.  Your answer probably works in that case.

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