Ketosis And Pure Organic Coconut Water

Hi, I am new to the idea of ketosis and intermittent fasting and about to give it a go. I have the basic principles down as well as a good idea of the dos and donts regarding general food items though I have a couple of specific questions I'd like to seek the answers to first.


 


1) During the fasting period (for me between 8-9pm and 2-3pm the following day) am I to COMPLETELY restrict all nutrient intake. Carbs and sugars seem like a no-brainer but what about other nutrients derived from pure or supplement sources. 


 


2) I have become quite accustom to, and love, drinking the water from fresh organic coconuts every morning after a workout. This water is straight from an organic, yellow, coconut and is opened and consumed immediately. There is always at least 500mm of liquid (often 750mm) in these yellow coconuts and I am wondering whether these will prevent me from entering, or take me out of ketosis. I have tried to find the answer to this but most people seem to refer to the canned variety rather than fresh. 


 


Thanks,


 


Adam


Comments

  • katolotuskatolotus ✭✭✭
    edited April 2013

    From what I know (so feel free to ignore) coconut water (natural or canned) has sugars in it (i.e. carbs) that'll bring you out of ketosis. I would suggest you only have it in your feeding window.


     


    Sorry to be a bringer of bad news, but I've found being bulletproof is about giving up things that you think you love and can't do without and replacing them with things, that are better for you, make you feel better and make the old stuff feel like an ex-lover that you no longer pine for and feel sorry for someone when you see them with with them :wink:


    Katolotus

    MMA Fighter

     

    SUCCESS: A lot of little things done well

  • HA! That's a pretty specific analogy right there. Speaking from past experience no doubt. 


    So you think I should be good to have the coconut water in the feeding window right?


     


    I just realised that you're an MMA fighter so you may be in a position to give me some even more specific advice. I've been training Muay Thai for the last 5-6 years and would love to hear any specifics you have around incorporating the Bulletproof diet along with IF and ketosis. The Bulletproof aspect is pretty self explanatory but how should you juggle fasting with training etc?


     


    I also normally use Isopure zero carb whey protein after a weights session and sometimes after training. How does this sit with ketosis if at all and can it be taken whilst in the fasted period? 


  • katolotuskatolotus ✭✭✭
    edited April 2013
    I can only tell you what I do and how i feel on it. I've heard others find it different.

    Monday-Friday

    I wake just after 5am. Talk salt water around 5:15am. Drink BPC (400ml) with upgraded coffee with between 31-62g butter, 30ml MCT oil and a bit of coco powder, coca nibs and lately a chunk of cocoa butter (mainly for taste) and some vanilla bean powder sprinkled on top. Getting too good :wink:


    I then take the following during my slow and beautiful drinking of bulletproof coffee while sitting in bed.


    Vitamin D3 (7000iu)

    Vitamin K2 (100mcg)

    Vitamin C (1000mg)

    Vitamin B12 (1000ug)

    kelp (30mg)

    Krill Oil (500mg)

    Fish Oil (2000mg)

    L Carnitine (1000mg)

    Tribulus Pro

    Glucosamine Chondroitin & MSM

    Turmeric (400mg)

    Green Tea

    Alpha Men (multi vit that I'll probably stop taking once they're all gone)

    BCAA (6g)


    I then cycle to my gym (not far) and train between 6:30am and 7:45am. This can consist of a few different things depending on the day. Kettlebells, Skipping, Punch Bag, Focus Pads, Heavy lifting (deadlifts, squats, weighted chins), Circuit training (normally 18mins). Sprints on the rower or airdyne (I don't run). I then stretch and have a 3 mile 15mins fast cycle to work, where I rest for 8hrs :wink:


    On getting to work I drink around 0.5 litres of water and take another 6g of BCAA's. I then don't eat until around 12pm, normally feeling hunger around 11am, but nothing too bad. I have plenty of energy all morning and feel great, but I do feel I've trained, especially if I sit for too long, where I'll stiffen up a bit.


    At around 12pm I'll have one can of Mackeral (125g) in olive oil or brine, mixed with a chopped Jalapeños and around 100g of green/black olives. Just dropped the sun-dried tomatoes due to a wanting to keep the carbs low. I'll so eat one Avocado (100g) and 3 brazil nuts. If I get hungry or bored I might eat 2 pieces of 85% or 90% Lindt.


    Next feed is around 3pm. This is my main meal of the day and sometimes I'm not really that hungry, but time doesn't allow to wait a few more hours. 2 boiled eggs, Sweet potato (150g) and LOTS of Vegs (kale, spinach, asparagus, broccoli, green beans, brussel sprouts, cauliflower, peppers, red and green chilli, jalapeños, spring onions) with butter (30g) and sea salt, cayenne pepper and turmeric powder. Looking at reducing carbs again with removing the sweet potato for more eggs. Again to reduce the carbs further at daily I consume around 70g. Another 3 mile cycle (fast).


    Then depending on the day and if I'm in a fight camp, I'll train between 5pm and 9pm, normally for around 60-90mins. More MMA training in the evening, BJJ, wrestling, MMA, Boxing etc. Then in the evening I'll have one boiled egg with wasabi and sea salt, 3 more brazil nuts and a protein shake with coconut milk, almond butter, L-Glutamine, Creatine, Cinnamon, Cocoa nibs, ice cubes and a raw egg. I'll add strawberries and blueberries if I can some.


    I'll then take the following while drinking the shake and wearing my blue light blocking glasses :wink:



    Vitamin A (8000iu)

    Vitamin E (400iu)

    Vitamin D3 (7000iu)

    Vitamin B6 (100mg)

    Vitamin C (1000mg)

    Vitamin B12 (1000ug)

    Beta-Carotene (6mg)

    Potassium (200mg)

    Selenium (200ug)

    CoEnzyme Q-10 (60mg)

    Magnesium (266mg)

    Zinc (25mg) copper (0.75mg)

    kelp (30mg)

    Krill Oil (500mg)

    Fish Oil (1000

    L Carnitine

    Tribulus Pro

    Glucosamine Chondroitin & MSM

    Turmeric

    Green Tea

    Alpha Men


    I also use magnesium oil on my body (10 sprays roughly), I then sleep for between 7-8hrs before repeating the process.

    Saturday-Sunday

    I normally on train once on Saturday (9am-10am) taking the same supplement and on maybe 2 BPC and fast till around 2pm before eating bulletproof the rest of the day. Eating more Lindt Dark Chocolate than I should.


    Currently Sunday is my rest day, so 3 egg omelette for breakfast (just given up porridge) and spend the rest of the day trying not to eat too much. Normally only have good food in the flat, so when I over eat it's normally good stuff. I've been trying to eat more carbs on my rest day to get ready for Monday morning. Sweet potato, rice and lots of Dark chocolate. I also try to have at least one grass-fed fillet steak. Same supplements again, morning and evening and the same protein shake before bed. I try and get 8hrs on Sunday night.

    Summary

    at present I'm holding my current weight, am training hard and increasing my performance. I don't feel particularly more tired that I should and perform well up until my rest day, hence looking at reducing carbs more during the week and adding a bit more on my rest day (carb reloading, carb nite sort of thing). I normally put on a few kg on my rest day, which normally drops off within a day or two. Occasionally I'll have a proper cheat rest day and eat cookies and pizza, but I always feel rubbish for a few days after, so don't do it too often.


    I have no issue training fasted and feel great all morning, no real crash at all. Looking at what I do, I'd expect to struggle a bit, but I've built up to this point slowly, so guessing i've adjusted well to this style of training and nutrition. I've been doing AM training for a couple of years and been doing 2-a-days regularly for a while.


    I'm currently not in a fight camp at the moment, as my next opponent has pulled out with a broken hand, so no fight booked, so looking to heal a couple of injuries before fighting again this year. So training is a little less intense and a few evenings off, but still training every morning. Once in camp and not missing any sessions, I'll start feeling it more and it'll be a struggle while I train harder and lose weight. But then that's what happens when your training for a fight in a certain weight class.


    This whole process would be much easier and more fun if my weight wasn't an issue. I weight myself everyday at the same time so I know how my body reacts to what I eat and what I do. This make getting to the right weight easier and training at my optimal much less of a lottery. Only last night a UFC fight go cancelled after a fight missed weight by 3lbs and then ended up in hospital dehydrated (http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/4/27/4274550/ufc-159-nick-catone-hospitalized-dehydration-james-head-fight-canceled-mma-news).


    If it was just about feeling good it would be much easier, if it was about looking good if would be a little harder, when it's about performance and weight, that's very difficult, but I feel I'm doing it pretty well, although the whole thing isn't very bulletproof. Especially as I'm now over 40.


    Sorry for the long post, but thanks for killing part of my rest day and keeping me away from my stock of Lindt in the fridge and making watching Jack Reacher less boring.

    Katolotus

    MMA Fighter

     

    SUCCESS: A lot of little things done well

  • Errr, that is some serious arse training schedule you've got yourself there!


     


    Thanks for posting this, it really is super helpful and quite an inspiration. Saying that your schedule is not all that different from my own although certainly more intense, considered and most importantly, informed. I currently train on average twice a day during the week (here in Dubai that's Sunday to Thursday) and normally take the weekend off but sometime squeeze a session in if it's not sunny and I don't fancy the beach or the pool. 


     


    I have a whole host of injuries at the moment so group session and sparring Muay Thai/ Sanda is a bit of an issue. The biggest problem is I have two slipped discs and a sprained vertebrae. Sounds worse than it is to be fair but just means explosive twisting motions are a bit uncomfortable as are movements like deadlifts and rows. That said a normal training week goes something like this.


     


    Sunday - Thursday


    Wake 7:45, go straight downstairs to the gym. Spend between 30 - 50min doing fat burning (sometimes fast 5k run) on the bike (had to drop the cross-trainer as I wasn't doing my back any favours) with some stretches and sit-ups too. Sometimes if I am feeling awake ill do some weights, high reps and moderate weights to allow my punching speed to not become sluggish. Back upstairs for X3 organic free-range eggs prepared as I like (although I have stopped this now due to IF) with smoked salmon or ham etc.At work by 10:00am where, like you I am pretty much desk bound for 7 - 8hrs. During the day I will consume about X5 cups of pure green tea and normally try to eat every three hours (again, I have knocked this on the head the last week due to IF). I generally eat very low-carb food anyway which consists of salads, grilled chicken etc. I will add some organic un-roasted almonds when hungry.


     


    When I get home I aim to train in some way every night but more intense than the morning. I do personal training Muay Thai/ Sanda twice a week and the rest I will either run, swim or weight train. I have to say none of the stuff I do on my own is too intense due to my back issue. I don't go to sparring or group sessions as I know I'll get carried away with myself and do myself in. 


     


    Dinner is always my main meal of the day as I love to cook and simply refuse to give up the passion. That said it simply never contains any refined carbs and is always whole, un-packaged food of some sort, rich in protien, normally low in fat (changed again over the last week) with lots of veg (everything is usually game except for potatoes basically).  


     


    Oh, and chuck 2 cubes of dark chocolate in per day too. Always above 70% and at the moment i have raw, organic, Loving Earth chocolate that is 73%. Next time I go to the shops I'll get something in the 80% - 90% range.


     


    Weekend


    Basically anything goes in terms of food although it is very rare I will eat any crap like pizza, cookies, pasta etc as you mentioned but bread certainly does sneak it's way in but not too much. As does the booze! I generally drink red wine or vodka and the occasional beer (but very few-and-far-between). I will sometimes add in some weights or a run too if the booze hasn't reared its ugly head too much. 


     


    So that is my approximate training schedule at the moment. It used to be a lot more intense. essentially the same food with 5k runs every morning and very intense Muay Thai 4 nights a week. 


     


    Current changes made


    The training schedule will remain although it may have take out the kickboxing for a bit whilst my back is on the mend, after which I can ramp it up much higher. Nutrition-wise I am starting to fast between 8pm - 2pm and accurately counting carbs to keep below 30g per day. I am aiming for 150g of fat and 135g of protein with a total calorie goal of 1990 per day. I am 31 (just about) 79.5kg, my BMI is currently 25.1 with 17.5% body fat. You may also notice the lack of suppliments I am taking. I plan to address this today and was thinking about the following...


     


    - Multivitimin 


    - Calcium


    - Vitamin C


    - Vitamin D 


    - Glucosomine 


    - Probiotics


    - Liv 52


    - BCAA


     


    Possibly


    - Alpha Lipoic Acid


    - L Glutamine


    - Magnesium 


    - Potassium


     


    My goal is primarily to lose weight (get back to where i was when I could train properly) and drop to about 75kg (I dont expect this to be very hard) and fix my injuries. After which I will look to gain lean muscle and tone up. 


     


    You have already invested a ton of time in your original post and I don't want to keep you away from getting your daily Tom Cruise fix but would love to hear you thoughts. Especially if you have any insights on the whole intermittent thing. I guess I have a couple of specific questions you, or anybody else may be able to help me with..... 


     


    - Does adding butter and or coconut oil/ MCT oil to your morning coffee/ green tea halt ketosis whilst I am fasting. I know it's Bulletproof inside out and ive read tons saying YES, DO IT but i can get my head around the fact that surely it has calories and shouldn't I be restricting them during the fast? 


    - I am used to eating a very low-carb, low-fat diet anyhow (for as long as I can remember) and probably eat nowhere near the suggested calorie intake of 1990 per day as it is. Do you think it is a good idea to increase my calories so much when normally this would be a drop for other people? 


    - Supplements, you obviously deem them pretty important. What do you think about the list above? 


     


    Right that's all from me. I sit next to the CEO so had better get a move-on.


     


    Thanks again,


     


    Adam


  • katolotuskatolotus ✭✭✭
    edited April 2013

    Are we now competing for the longest post :wink:


     


    At work now, so this'll be short.


     


    BPC before training and during IF will not knock you out of burning fat as fuel (ketosis). Only carbs & protein will do that, as they can be burnt. You'll find IF very easy with butter in your coffee.


     


    Supplement choice look good, I would get Magnesium and potassium to help with recovery and sleep, plus they are cheap. L-Glutamine is also something worth getting in my humble opinion.


     


    Get on the full BPC now! I would also stop the long steady cardio as you're wasting your time. Hard and Fast is the way to go in general and I believe for fight sports too. Injuries can be worked around normally, I've had lots of back and spine issue. My back put an end to me running over 10 years ago.


     


    Remember, I'm far from an expert, so if anyone contradict what I've said, there's a chance they're right :wink:


    Katolotus

    MMA Fighter

     

    SUCCESS: A lot of little things done well

  • OK so I'm all good on the nutrients then, I'll get them sorted later.


    Especially interested in anything that aids sleep as I'm not a good sleeper in general. 


     


    When you say "long cardio" are you counting the 5k'ish runs in that too?


    There are two reasons why I do long slow in the morning


     


    1) My gym is in my building so I go from in bed to in the gym within a matter of 10min. It's a gentle way to wake me up and start the day. If i know I'm going to go at it hard then chances are the pillow will win the battle. Once I'm in the gym It might be a different story. 


    2) Hard and fast doesnt seem to do my back any favours. What type of exercise do you think makes sense and for how long?


     


    OK, and finally one last time so I am clear. I can eat as much butter/ coconut oil/ MCT oil whilst fasting and not be kicked out of ketosis?


     


    Cheers


  • katolotuskatolotus ✭✭✭

    1) it's about self improvement, so do what's best for you. 5k in the morning cause you're lazy doesn't cut it. Sounds like you're currently wasting your time a bit in your morning sessions. Don't let the pillow win. BPC when you wake up (after your salt water), then hit the gym wide-a-wake and ready to do work.


     


    2) Hard & Fast doesn't mean losing technique, which should help your back. Personally I stay off the running machine, as the pounding goes though my lower back. Bike or Rower. 10 mins and you're done if you put 90-100% into your sprints. Loads of info out there. I'm looking into 3:30 slow/30secs 100% x 6-8, but I'd start 50secs slow 10 secs 100% for 6-8 mins after a few minutes warming up. Has to be 100% though ;-)


     


    In theory yes, but too much of anything isn't good. You will stay in Ketosis though.


    Katolotus

    MMA Fighter

     

    SUCCESS: A lot of little things done well

  • M. ThomasM. Thomas A Stick of Butter a Day Keeps the Doctor Away.

    no sugars or proteins in your fasting period.  I would refer to Martin Berkhan's resources at www.leangains.com for AM workout protocols.


  • I used to do 30sec intense cycle then 30 sec rest and repeat 8-10 times. 


    I wouldn't say I was going 100% though, more like 80%. 


     


    Another was to sprint up 5 floors (X2 sets of stairs per floor) then rest for 30 sec. Repeat 5 times or until a reached the roof. That one was pretty damn near 100% I would say and would use the long and slow as a warm-up.


     


    Though from your suggestions you seem to put value on recovering 100% before the next sprint. Something which my previous routine didn't allow for. With that in mind think I could adapt to what you described pretty well in the morning. 


     


    I bet keeping this constant really helps with 3-5min bursts of energy in rounds. 


  • katolotuskatolotus ✭✭✭

    I do a mixture of both. I do 20sec sprints with only 10sec rest.


     


    If you're doing 5k, how are you going to improve? Do it faster, or do it longer. I doubt you want to be in the gym longer, so faster.


     


    If you agree with the above, then you're on the right track. Hard & Fast. No room for 80% ;-)


    Katolotus

    MMA Fighter

     

    SUCCESS: A lot of little things done well

  • Good stuff!


  • SystemSystem mod
    edited August 2013

    I'm not sure about coconut water for ketosis, as was already mentioned I would probably suggest to take it only during the feeding window. Anyway I'm sure that fresh coconut water is supposed to be more beneficial for you than canned one.  Here is organic coconut water I drink sometimes after working out as I've heard coconut water is the best natural alternative to sports drinks.


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