Neuroptimal

I noticed that NeurOptimal was added as a product on Bulletproof.  Anybody have any experience with it? 


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  • GhastlyPrezGhastlyPrez Ghastly Prezence

    Haven't seen it or heard about it, got any intel on it? Only products I'm familiar with that have the name Neuro in it are Smart Drugs for Thought's products. 


  • I'm a NeurOptimal trainer. It's a form of neurofeedback that lets your brain know when it's wasting energy, and helps it shut down unnecesary processes that run in the background. The result is that most people experience better focus, relaxation, sleep, stress-management, and peak performance. You can check out my website for more info: www.ColoradoNeurofeedback.com , or go straight to the website for the Zengar Institute, which developed NeurOptimal.


  • I went to my first session last week because there was a groupon for it.  I got three sessions for 55 bucks.  Definitely low enough for me to check it out. 


     


    After a half hour it felt like I was cramming for an exam all day.  I had used up a lot of resources in that short time even though I was just listening to music and watching a screen.


     


    Later on I felt a pressure in the front of my brain but it didn't really hurt.   I had the day off and just relaxed but the weirdest thing is that I started drawing just because I was bored instead of just turning on the tv.  The next day I woke up exactly like a minute before my alarm was going to go off and was very alert and ready to go.  I have felt a difference since.


     


    I cant wait to see more cumulative effects.  It is unlike any other neurofeedback in that it works in real time with your brain and not from an eeg from two weeks ago.  It works with multiple brainwave frequencies at the same time and makes the training more like a workout with a warm up, high intensity and cool down phase.

  • edited August 2013

    My second session was a lot more intense,  I could here the clicking sounds that signal your brain more frequently.  It is a serious brain work out, I was focused for a couple hours afterwards but after awhile it felt like I just did a double shift at a restaurant.  Im taking fish oil, coconut and butter before training next time to try make it smoother.  I had trouble sleeping that night which is the opposite effect that most people have. 


     


    A lot of you won't believe this and I don't care if you do or don't, but after this second session I can see aura's again.  It's been a few years since I have. Totally was not expecting that.


     


    More normal improvements include talking more fluidly while using more of my vocabulary, more motivation out of the blue, forward planning, and memory retention. I've noticed increased dream recall as well as more educational and vivid dreams.


     


    My next session is tomorrow morning.  I will report further then


  • StevoStevo Upgrade in Progress

    It looks like the personal version is $5,500 and you get 300 sessions. The professional version is $9,500 but you get unlimited sessions for 6 months so it could be even cheaper if you have enough people who want a lot of sessions!


     


    Personal version: 6 people, $916.67 each for 50 sessions each.


    Professional version: 6 people, $1583.33 each for 300, 400, 500, 600, as many sessions as you can squeeze into 6 months!


     


    Pro version + 1 year PASS ($995): 6 people, $1749.16 each for as many sessions as you like across 18 months! Then only $165.83 each per year to keep it topped up.


  • Great info thunder! Awesome to hear your session-by-session breakdowns, and also what you notice in between.  Please keep the updates coming!


  • Anyone else who is using the Neuroptimal in particular, please post! I'm considering getting one, but would like to see what experiences people have had with it before springing for quite so much.


     


    Also, is there any way to use the Neuroptimal with your own computer, instead of needing to lug around the provided laptop?


  • Ancient PhiAncient Phi 144eqls9
    edited August 2013
    I have been to more than 20 sessions with a NeurOptimal neurofeedback trainer in Colorado. I had the most incredible experience my FIRST session. It was borderline psychedelic. My eyes were closed and I was visualizing my brain, mind, and awareness becoming as massive as the sky. I had all sorts of mental sensations that I could actually feel was my brain getting bigger and stronger. None of this was as a result of any effort on my part. I was just sitting there listening to the music and all these amazing perceptions and sensations began to occur.


    I went home after the session and before i knew it had studied uninterrupted for more than 4 hours. I have been diagnosed with ADHD so this is literally something that I have never done before. After I had realized how much time had gone by I was in disbelief. Normally I go about 10-15 minutes between mental distractions and whatnot.


    The following day I took the exam that I had been studying for and I finished the exam before 3/4 of the class. Again I sat there in disbelief because (and I do not exaggerate one bit here) I am ALWAYS either the last or second to last person to leave the room on test days. I normally get distracted every other question and end up racing to finish at the end. After just one neurofeedback session these were my results. I got hooked and did 19 more sessions.


    Other amazing results: no more songs stuck in your head (for real that shit goes away real quick), I fall asleep much much faster, I am much less reactionary (no more crazy thought-out hypothetical scenarios in your head)


    Please send me a message if anybody has more questions, I'd be happy to help.


    I absolutely recommend it to everybody. This technology should be in every school, hospital, prison, session of Congress etc... It truly is amazing.


    Sorry if I sound preachy but it has helped me so much.

    ~ The Universe goes inward just as much as it goes outward ~

     

  • I'm in the SF Bay area and would love to team up with others to do some neuroptimal training.  Either the 300 session personal or going full splurge and getting the pro version.  Anyone interested?


  • edited August 2013

    Great info Ancient Phi, thanks!


     


    For those who are interested in people's results with NeurOptimal, there's a therapist who did her PhD studying the effects of Neuroptimal on ~30 or so of her clients:


    https://www.zengar.com/files/File/research/cochrane-final.pdf


    You can read her results section (page 97) for detailed discussion of the changes her clients experienced, and the appendix (page 145) has a detailed list of each client's observations of their subjective experience and changes noticed throughout their training.


     


    Generally, it seems like most clients experienced significant positive change, albeit with some bumps in the road.


     


    I'm not sure how closely associated she is with Zengar, whether she was funded by them or whatever - it seems like there are definite ties, so do take it with a pinch of salt.  Nevertheless, it's a seemingly well-done piece of research.


  • Highly interested in this as well... The Groupon alone is making me consider a road trip to give it a go.


  • edited August 2013

    I'm also interested in teaming up with some people to get the cost down for some Neuroptimal training, but I live in Georgia.  Does a group really need to be in the same area to share in the training?  

  • I would want close access to it if it were me.  It consists of a larger size laptop, a box about as big as whats on a laptop power cord, and some wires.  You could ship it around I guess but there are too many additional costs/risks involved with that.


     


    Could you find a personal development or spiritual meetup group that may want to share costs?  I'm still thinking about what I'm going to do but I know I need some more training.


  • My third experience I actually almost fell asleep. My body is getting used to it a little more.  I really didn't get any significant breakthroughs on the third session but I certainly did feel better.  I am still sleeping a hell of a lot better and dream recall and intensity is increased.  I am still more articulate, focused, and determined than before the sessions.  I am reluctant to pay 95 a pop for sessions but I think my practitioner might make a deal with me.  I can't imagine what I would be like with 10 sessions.  Psychic, whiz kid, or sax virtuoso come to mind.


     


    Nothing has effected me this greatly in my life and I am about 10 years into self help, meditation, and alternative/cutting edge health.  This and implementing bulletproof concepts, it is hard to say how much my brain would have responded without all the fats I am now giving it.  I can often times feel my brain reorganizing.


     


    A couple of caveats however.  First is the bulletproof thing.  I guarantee I would not be in the same place mentally even with neuroptimal.  Second, I am going with Dave's ejaculation once a month thing which has changed my thinking and performance incredibly.  I am on month two and feel no need to 'release' anything. I feel totally at peace with it and it motivates me to go out and talk with girls. 


     


    So as with all of us there are a lot of factors at work, especially if our bodies are responding to new things, but I think neuroptimal definitely has it's place and deserves the acclaim Dave has afforded it.


    '


  • Thanks thunder. I had one free intro session and want to do more. One interesting thing is that for the last 6 weeks I lost the ability to jump rope at the end of some of my workouts. I kept tripping over the rope. After doing one session of NeurOptimal on the 13th I felt the world to be a little more vibrant and after I got home I pulled out the jump rope and I was able to jump again. Not perfectly but way better than I had been doing the past 6 weeks. I want to do more, but it would cost $1000 for 10 sessions. There is no local interest in getting together a group to share one, so I guess I'll have to see if I can work out a better deal.


  • I live in the bay area and am interested in teaming up, I may have 1-4 others interested as well...
  • Any updates guys? I'm highly intrigued about this. Have you had any more session? If so how's progress? If not, how are the effects holding up?


  • In ATL, GA and interested in using one of these.


  • Hi all,

    I am actually a NeurOptimal trainer in the Bay Area. I have 3 offices where I see clients around the bay.

    NeurOptimal changed my life. I found out about NO when I was suffering from anxiety, depression, insomnia and chemo brain after going through cancer treatments. After about 6-8 sessions of NO I started to see all of these issues just melting away. It was and incredible transformation!

    I have seen such amazing results with all of my clients. I am sorry, I don't currently have a website, it is in the works.

    I would be more than happy to answer any questions or if any of your Bay Area folks are interested in giving it a try, let me know. Feel free to email me at angmartinucci@gmail.com or call 510-691-8133

    Take care!

    Angela
  • After monitoring this thread and listening to the Val Brown podcast, I decided to rent NO for a month before taking the $5.5k plunge.  I've done five of my planned 30 sessions.  Definitely keeps my mind from jumping around as much but I'm not seeing any benefit in my Sudoku or N-Back.  I'm seeing more benefit in the subjective areas (work performance and family life) but I think those areas are more susceptible to a placebo effect with a cash outlay of this size.  Thus, far I'd definitely choose my Upgraded Brain Trainer over NO.  


  • What's a rental set you back for a month?  I didn't know that was an option.


  • Yes the rental is interesting.  Also, I'm going tomorrow for number four.  It's been a couple of weeks.  I'm signed up for 9 more as a package deal.


  • Rentals are indeed an option. I just got one for $600 for the month.


  • At $600/month and daily sessions, you could conceivably fit in 30 sessions on a rental at $20/session, which would be a lot cheaper than the other options.  


     


    Question is, how long does it take the brain to integrate the training benefits from one session to the next?  If you listen to the BP Neuroptimal podcast, "less is more" is emphasized; what if an optimal training schedule is more like once a week?  Is it counterproductive to train too frequently?  Is it ineffective?  


     


    I don't have anything against people charging high prices for high-value products and services, but imo the Neuroptimal business model really looks as though it was designed primarily to drain the maximum amount of money out of everyone who touches it, including their own certified trainers.


     


    If I lived near a trainer with the pro system, I think I'd go that route, because it looks like no matter which way you go, you pay the same, and with the pro system you get more diagnostic info.  And since the trainers are having to scrape together $10K every six months just to keep their equipment functional, maybe you can find one desperate to cut you a decent deal.  


     


    Sorry if that comes across as overly cynical, but after listening to the BP podcast with Val Brown a few times and hearing all the high-minded sentiment of making effective nfb training accessible and affordable, I'm not seeing how this product does anything to further either of those goals.  And that's a real pity, because the nfb model the NO software uses really looks promising, in terms of benefits received vs time spent training.  


  • The rental idea is an interesting one -- with the 3 people in my family we could do 2-3 months and each get our 30+ times from it.  I am in Atlanta, GA and wondering if there are any "trainers" here?  If someone in Atlanta would be interested in splitting the cost of one then "private message" me and we can talk as well.


     


    Thanks,


    Jeremy


  • Is anyone familiar with the various types of neurofeedback technologies? I'd appreciate it if someone could elucidate the benefits and drawbacks between a system such as the NeuroOptimal which facilitates self-regulation versus a more aggressive EEG approach which stimulates the brain at the desired frequencies, so that the brain can entrain to them. Moreover, which approach would be more effective to significantly elevate mental performance. 


    I've personally already attained a very strong handle and can control my mental state almost at will, as a result of meditation, entrainment technologies etc. Would the NeuroOptimal be almost unnecessary for someone whose brain is already functioning quite efficiently? Is EEG then a more effective approach? 


  • Hza:  Where did you get the whole 10k every six months figure for trainers?  There is some certification that they don't require you to do as well as the PASS system for 950/yr. that doesn't really seem like a requirement either. I think the PASS system is more like a warranty and maintenance package.  The initial 10k is all you need to start with I believe.  Unless you know something I don't.


     


    If you go on the zengar website to training there is a free webinar on October 1st that you can sign up for.  It's only an hour but you can ask whatever questions you want.


     


    As far as someone asking how often to do it, my trainer says that the consensus amongst most trainers is that you should do it twice a week to make the progress really stick.  I'm trying to make that happen and will report back.


     


    Another weird benefit I have noticed over sessions is that my reflexes are getting better.  If something falls off a table I am more than likely to catch it now whereas it was about 50/50 or less before.  My brain seems to be more relaxed about the training, before it felt like an all night cram session.



  • Hza:  Where did you get the whole 10k every six months figure for trainers?  There is some certification that they don't require you to do as well as the PASS system for 950/yr. that doesn't really seem like a requirement either. I think the PASS system is more like a warranty and maintenance package.  The initial 10k is all you need to start with I believe.  Unless you know something I don't.






     


     


    I don't remember now when or how I heard it (podcast, most likely), but when I first became aware of the Professional option with NO, Dave A said that if you had enough friends to split the cost with, you could go the Pro route and have unlimited use of the system for 6 months.  That's all I heard, nothing else about terms.  My assumption has been that at the end of 6 months, you have to pay again, but can't find the specific terms now that I've been looking for them.


    A Pro system costs $9,500 (so 10k was a bit of an exaggeration), and my assumption was that the next 6 months would cost something close to that. I didn't realize at the time how much extra equipment that most people don't need comes with the Pro system, so that no doubt knocks off a significant amount of money you'll probably have to pay if there's a refill charge.


    Looking over the Zengar website now, I'm not finding anything about a 6 month restriction, or any information at all on what limitations there are with the Pro system. Is usage truly unlimited? Do you have to re-up somehow? There's going to be some kind of restriction involved, I'm betting. I haven't read the whole website yet, so maybe the info is available there somewhere. Could very well be that you have to call and ask.


    Anyway, you can easily find on the website that to get 300 refills on the personal system would set you back another $3000-$12,000, depending on how many you buy at once. At these prices, I seriously doubt you can just drop $9500 on a Pro system and walk away with nothing more to pay (or at least no significant amount) ever.



  •  


    Nothing has effected me this greatly in my life and I am about 10 years into self help, meditation, and alternative/cutting edge health.  This and implementing bulletproof concepts, it is hard to say how much my brain would have responded without all the fats I am now giving it.  I can often times feel my brain reorganizing.




     


    I am curious exactly how Neuroptimal compares to meditation. Can you share more about how often you were meditating? Do you feel like your practice was effective? Did you frequenly become deeply absorbed in your meditation?

  • Neuroptimal trains 12-16 hz, then 8-12 hz and finally 6-8 hz during a session.  It only trains 2 spots on the head which is somewhat limiting.  Usually a full head QEEG allows for more customization and can train other areas on the brain that are specific to particular conditions.  I know of a guy that offers an online QEEG for about 150 bucks and offers more customizable training.  You buy your own equipment so you get to keep it for the life of the product.  The learning curve is a lot higher, but it will be like only 1 dollar a session if I keep my machine for 5 years.  


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