Modafinil Adrenal Fatigue Relationship

I see from a number of posts that some people seem to get a benefit from small dosages of modafinil. 25-50mg. I on the other hand dont really feel anything unless I take 125-150 mg. Taking the 25-75mg does nothing noticible.


 


I also read on another site about non responders to Piracetam and Choline (nootropics) and the conclusion was adrenal fatigue. I do drink coffee, of course and it doesn't really affect me the way caffiene should. Even taking a 200mg caffiene pill is rather mild.


 


Has the relationship between "adrenal fatigue" and modafinil been explored? Am I a non responder because I have adrenal fatigue? I have taken quite a few of the online quizes, including the pupil test(validity?), only for all of them to tell me that yes I have "adrenal fatigue".


 


If I repair/improve my adrenals would my response to modafinil increase and start seeing a greater benefit at a lower dose?


 


Ideas?


Thanks


«1

Comments

  • edited June 2013

    Hm. That's interesting. Ever since I went into full blown ketosis, the armodafinil efficacy was halfed for me. I actually made a thread on reddit about it and no one connected the two. This is relevant to your question b/c many say that <30g carbs daily causes adrenal fatigue and that's exactly what I've been doing essentially [for 9 weeks now].


     


    I also barely get anything out of any stimulants anymore post-induction, which again corroborates my presumption that adrenal fatigue may have something to do with it. I am re-adding carbs back in as we speak (not more than like 50g-70g/day for now), so when that presumably fixes my adrenals, then I will take armo and post back here. I think one week or so will be adequate to get me back to baseline, which is when I will post here. 


  • Seeing through the chaotic.
  • edited June 2013

    In case you have yet to peruse this thread...


     


    http://forum.bulletproofexec.com/index.php?/topic/3933-adrenal-fatigue-protocol/


     


    I did peruse that one before I posted. :smile: The consensus seems to be to take some adrenal supplements and adaptagen herbs with phosphatidylserine.


    Which I plan to follow but I am wondering to following.


     


    -Does this then make me more modafinil sensitive?


    -Cure my lack of response to nootropics?


    -How long does it actually take to affect my adrenals positively?


    -Do any studies/anecdotal evidence show or support a relationship between burned out adrenals and low sensitivity to modafinil


  • This is an interesting question. Nootropics don't affect me much. What site did you read about the piracetam/choline/adrenal fatigue relationship?


  • This is an interesting question. Nootropics don't affect me much. What site did you read about the piracetam/choline/adrenal fatigue relationship?


     


    In various places but mainly on (hope its ok to post links to other sites?)


     


    http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/34864-piracetam-non-responders/


    http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/55455-how-i-got-piracetam-to-work-for-me/


    http://www.neurobrainstorm.com/2012/12/why-piracetam-doesnt-work-for-some.html


    http://www.wickedfire.com/shooting-shit/151524-piracetam-2.html


     


    I didn't see anyone link modafinil sensitivity and adrenal fatigue (my own theory).  I used to take ephedrine and caffiene prior to working out until my ephedrine supply ran out. But If adrenal fatigue is a real thing I seem to fit it pretty well.

  • RodRod The Rodfather

    I see from a number of posts that some people seem to get a benefit from small dosages of modafinil. 25-50mg. I on the other hand dont really feel anything unless I take 125-150 mg. Taking the 25-75mg does nothing noticible.


     


    I also read on another site about non responders to Piracetam and Choline (nootropics) and the conclusion was adrenal fatigue. I do drink coffee, of course and it doesn't really affect me the way caffiene should. Even taking a 200mg caffiene pill is rather mild.


     


    Has the relationship between "adrenal fatigue" and modafinil been explored? Am I a non responder because I have adrenal fatigue? I have taken quite a few of the online quizes, including the pupil test(validity?), only for all of them to tell me that yes I have "adrenal fatigue".


     


    If I repair/improve my adrenals would my response to modafinil increase and start seeing a greater benefit at a lower dose?


     


    Ideas?


    Thanks


     


    Hey, 


     


    It seems that you have 2 separate problems that may be interrelated. I would believe that if your adrenals were stronger than you will have a greater chances to feel the increase with modafinil. I am going off by simple logic that if you are already stressed, adding things that would put more stress may make your body change to deflect it. Your body may not be going using the modafinil because it knows it's going to push it overboard. 


     


     


     


    Hm. That's interesting. Ever since I went into full blown ketosis, the armodafinil efficacy was halfed for me. I actually made a thread on reddit about it and no one connected the two. This is relevant to your question b/c many say that <30g carbs daily causes adrenal fatigue and that's exactly what I've been doing essentially [for 9 weeks now].


     


    I also barely get anything out of any stimulants anymore post-induction, which again corroborates my presumption that adrenal fatigue may have something to do with it. I am re-adding carbs back in as we speak (not more than like 50g-70g/day for now), so when that presumably fixes my adrenals, then I will take armo and post back here. I think one week or so will be adequate to get me back to baseline, which is when I will post here. 


     


    Yes, you have made a correct connection! Everyone's body needs fine tuning but depending on stress status, you may be able to feel the max effects in ketosis or on a reefed etc...


     


     


     


    I did peruse that one before I posted. :smile: The consensus seems to be to take some adrenal supplements and adaptagen herbs with phosphatidylserine.


    Which I plan to follow but I am wondering to following.


     


    -Does this then make me more modafinil sensitive?


    -Cure my lack of response to nootropics?


    -How long does it actually take to affect my adrenals positively?


    -Do any studies/anecdotal evidence show or support a relationship between burned out adrenals and low sensitivity to modafinil


     


    Phosphatidylserine is for high cortisol, not low, so making sure you know when to use it is ideal. 


     


    1-We won't know that answer, it will depend on the status of your body as a whole, stress, nutrition, sleep, immune, etc...


    2- Try to cycle on and off, check quality of nootropics, make a baseline and record it over a period of time to see if changes in stress and lifestyle increase/decrease nootropic effects. 


    3- It depends on your levels and you won't know exactly until you test, supplement, and retest. You can play it by ear, do a one month protocol and try everything for a few weeks, then go back to another protocol. Keep doing this will you see minimal change. 


    4- No study's that I have seen but with adrenal fatigue, you have trouble absorbing a lot from the GI track so that should give you a lead. 


     


     


     


    This is an interesting question. Nootropics don't affect me much. What site did you read about the piracetam/choline/adrenal fatigue relationship?


     


    Check your digestion, do some adrenal test using the blood pressure monitor. 

    Everything I learned about "biohacking" has been baby steps to "circadian biology", that's where the real biohacking comes in. You can buy a bunch of cool shit to "hack" but if you don't have context, you're not winning. Paleo is just a brand now and too many have opinions, it's on you to read and reread the material to not only find truth but to connect the dots. Much love to everyone who has helped me on my journey for restoring my health, please keep in touch. Feel free to message me with health questions [email protected] 

  • From what I understand people with AF need to be careful with anything that's a central nervous system stimulant which I think would apply to Modafinil. Back when I had a bad case of AF caffeine pills and smoking cigars would cause me to crash probably since I was getting a large dose of nicotine which is a stimulant.


  • Would Jarrow's 'Adrenal Optimizer' be a good blend of adaptogenic herbs?


     


    http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Adrenal-Optimizer-60-Tablets/7923


  • Would Jarrow's 'Adrenal Optimizer' be a good blend of adaptogenic herbs?


     


    http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Adrenal-Optimizer-60-Tablets/7923


     


    That looks pretty decent. The shizandra, licorice root, ashwagandha, and eleuthero root are all very good adaptogens. Rhodiola rosea is thought to be a possible mild stimulant which wouldn't be the best thing for AF but the dose is probably low enough that it probably wouldn't be much of a problem. Gotu Kola and Chamomile aren't adaptogens but they're still beneficial, I'm guessing they added chamomile for it's calming effect and gotu kola is a good source of B vitamins.

  • Hey, 


     


    It seems that you have 2 separate problems that may be interrelated. I would believe that if your adrenals were stronger than you will have a greater chances to feel the increase with modafinil. I am going off by simple logic that if you are already stressed, adding things that would put more stress may make your body change to deflect it. Your body may not be going using the modafinil because it knows it's going to push it overboard. 


     


     


     


     


    Yes, you have made a correct connection! Everyone's body needs fine tuning but depending on stress status, you may be able to feel the max effects in ketosis or on a reefed etc...


     


     


     


     


    Phosphatidylserine is for high cortisol, not low, so making sure you know when to use it is ideal. 


     


    1-We won't know that answer, it will depend on the status of your body as a whole, stress, nutrition, sleep, immune, etc...


    2- Try to cycle on and off, check quality of nootropics, make a baseline and record it over a period of time to see if changes in stress and lifestyle increase/decrease nootropic effects. 


    3- It depends on your levels and you won't know exactly until you test, supplement, and retest. You can play it by ear, do a one month protocol and try everything for a few weeks, then go back to another protocol. Keep doing this will you see minimal change. 


    4- No study's that I have seen but with adrenal fatigue, you have trouble absorbing a lot from the GI track so that should give you a lead. 


     


     


     


     


    Check your digestion, do some adrenal test using the blood pressure monitor. 


     


     


    Could you clarify what you mean by that? How would you assess af via bpm? 

  • RodRod The Rodfather

    Could you clarify what you mean by that? How would you assess af via bpm? 


     


     


    Sure, check out this link which will give you some more details on how to take the test


     


    http://www.adrenalfatiguerecovery.com/adrenal-function-tests.html

    Everything I learned about "biohacking" has been baby steps to "circadian biology", that's where the real biohacking comes in. You can buy a bunch of cool shit to "hack" but if you don't have context, you're not winning. Paleo is just a brand now and too many have opinions, it's on you to read and reread the material to not only find truth but to connect the dots. Much love to everyone who has helped me on my journey for restoring my health, please keep in touch. Feel free to message me with health questions [email protected] 

  • John BrissonJohn Brisson The Legend Formerly Known as Ron Swanson ✭✭✭

    That looks pretty decent. The shizandra, licorice root, ashwagandha, and eleuthero root are all very good adaptogens. Rhodiola rosea is thought to be a possible mild stimulant which wouldn't be the best thing for AF but the dose is probably low enough that it probably wouldn't be much of a problem. Gotu Kola and Chamomile aren't adaptogens but they're still beneficial, I'm guessing they added chamomile for it's calming effect and gotu kola is a good source of B vitamins.


     


    Licorice root can cause swelling and increased blood pressure. Take it very sparingly. Gaia makes a better one. Adaptogenic Herbs should only be taken when one has mild adrenal fatigue.

    My book Fix Your Gut, is offered on Amazon for $9.99.

     

    I also offer coaching:  http://fixyourgut.com/health-coaching-information/

     

    Please join or like the Fix your Gut Facebook. Also please add me on twitter @FixYourGutJB.

     

    http://www.fixyourgut.com

     

  • RodRod The Rodfather

    Licorice root can cause swelling and increased blood pressure. Take it very sparingly. Gaia makes a better one. Adaptogenic Herbs should only be taken when one has mild adrenal fatigue.


     


     


    http://www.amazon.com/Gaia-Herbs-Adrenal-Health-Phyto-Capsules/dp/B0036THMKS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1370841589&sr=8-1&keywords=gaia+adrenal+support


     


    You can see how bad the AF is by using the BPM technique. The bigger the drop, the more AF you are. 

    Everything I learned about "biohacking" has been baby steps to "circadian biology", that's where the real biohacking comes in. You can buy a bunch of cool shit to "hack" but if you don't have context, you're not winning. Paleo is just a brand now and too many have opinions, it's on you to read and reread the material to not only find truth but to connect the dots. Much love to everyone who has helped me on my journey for restoring my health, please keep in touch. Feel free to message me with health questions [email protected] 

  • edited June 2013

    It should also be mentioned that low blood pressure in general is also an indicator of exhausted adrenals when present in conjunction with the other symptoms of adrenal gland fatigue.


     


    My recent blood pressure reading was like 140/80. I am definitely in the hypertension zone. I was actually entertaining that my malaise on a ketogenic diet was just symptoms of high blood pressure (headache, nausea etc.) It's either that or coconut oil makes me invariably nauseous. 


     


    Btw., op, I actually took .5 of a 75mg armodafinil today and crashed hard like 3-4 hrs into it with the symptoms mentioned above manifesting predictably. This started happening only after keto-induction -- I have no idea what's going on. I am starting to rule out adrenal fatigue since I carb-loaded with sweet potatoes tonight. I will be getting a bpm today to find out what's going on. 


  • Licorice root can cause swelling and increased blood pressure. Take it very sparingly. Gaia makes a better one. Adaptogenic Herbs should only be taken when one has mild adrenal fatigue.


     


    My BP has actually gone down and normalized since starting licorice but the steroidal chemicals in licorice root can deplete small amounts of potassium, so anyone taking large doses can add food or supplement sources of potassium to counteract that. The only issue I've had is I used to be allergic to LR but as my adrenals got stronger that completely cleared. 


     


    In my experience adaptogens were helpful for even a more advanced cases. I was probably somewhere in stage 3 adrenal exhaustion according to Dr. Lam's guidelines but I didn't start to come out of it until I added adaptogens like ashwagandha, amla, jiaogulan, cordyceps, and siberian ginseng, I would gradually get better as I added each one. 

  • My BP has actually gone down and normalized since starting licorice but the steroidal chemicals in licorice root can deplete small amounts of potassium, so anyone taking large doses can add food or supplement sources of potassium to counteract that. The only issue I've had is I used to be allergic to LR but as my adrenals got stronger that completely cleared. 


     


    In my experience adaptogens were helpful for even a more advanced cases. I was probably somewhere in stage 3 adrenal exhaustion according to Dr. Lam's guidelines but I didn't start to come out of it until I added adaptogens like ashwagandha, amla, jiaogulan, cordyceps, and siberian ginseng, I would gradually get better as I added each one. 


     


    Would you say you are completely fixed now, and if so how long did that take?

  • Would you say you are completely fixed now, and if so how long did that take?


     


    I still get a little fatigued sometimes if I don't eat often enough and have some mild but significantly reduced allergies left but I'd say I'm well over 90% fixed and I keep getting better. It took around 5 months. The biggest challenge was I was allergic to a lot of the supplements that could have helped and bad allergic reactions would cause me to crash. Once I found the right combination of adaptogens I wasn't allergic to, natural vit C, b5, and tyrosine my progress was much more rapid. 

  • John BrissonJohn Brisson The Legend Formerly Known as Ron Swanson ✭✭✭

    I still get a little fatigued sometimes if I don't eat often enough and have some mild but significantly reduced allergies left but I'd say I'm well over 90% fixed and I keep getting better. It took around 5 months. The biggest challenge was I was allergic to a lot of the supplements that could have helped and bad allergic reactions would cause me to crash. Once I found the right combination of adaptogens I wasn't allergic to, natural vit C, b5, and tyrosine my progress was much more rapid. 


     


    I would honestly say that the vitamin C, b5 and tyrosine did more for you then the adaptogens ever did.

    My book Fix Your Gut, is offered on Amazon for $9.99.

     

    I also offer coaching:  http://fixyourgut.com/health-coaching-information/

     

    Please join or like the Fix your Gut Facebook. Also please add me on twitter @FixYourGutJB.

     

    http://www.fixyourgut.com

     

  • I would honestly say that the vitamin C, b5 and tyrosine did more for you then the adaptogens ever did.


     


    That hasn't been my experience, they have been extremely important in my case. B5 and tyrosine have been very helpful but I only had started on them after seeing major results with the adaptogens and amla as a vit C source. Back when my symptoms were bad and I was just starting to see some improvement from adaptogens, I tried stopping them a few times and kept amla and magnesium as my only supplements. Each time my my symptoms would start to worsen again after a few days. Every time I added an adaptogen that I wasn't allergic to I would experience further improvement.

  • DiogenesDiogenes
    edited June 2013

    I would honestly say that the vitamin C, b5 and tyrosine did more for you then the adaptogens ever did.


     


    What dosages of those would you recommend?


     


    Is L-Phenylalanine a better idea than Tyrosine, given that it's the precursor that the body naturally metabolises into tyrosine?


  • I would just like to add, I have been dealing HPA disfunction/adrenal fatigue and choline supplementation and racetams are significantly less effective to useless compared to before i lost my health. Interestingly enough adaptogens help allow the nootropics to work. It has something to do with a damaged mineral corticoid system and its relation to boosting dopamine and acetylcholine in the brain, not saying i understand it all i am just aware what did work and now doesn't. 


     


    I just got a prescription for nuvigil to help myself survive a very early shift but i am also afraid that this will overwork weak adrenals when i don't even feel comfortable with BPIF


  • John BrissonJohn Brisson The Legend Formerly Known as Ron Swanson ✭✭✭

    Nuvigil will further tax your adrenal gland because of over-stimulation of adrenal glands to release adrenaline and cortisol.


    My book Fix Your Gut, is offered on Amazon for $9.99.

     

    I also offer coaching:  http://fixyourgut.com/health-coaching-information/

     

    Please join or like the Fix your Gut Facebook. Also please add me on twitter @FixYourGutJB.

     

    http://www.fixyourgut.com

     

  • edited March 2014


    Nuvigil will further tax your adrenal gland because of over-stimulation of adrenal glands to release adrenaline and cortisol.




     


    It certainly doesn't increase cortisol. See the study below. Cortisol secretion was unchanged with administration of modafinil.


     


    "These data show that the alerting property of modafinil is not related to an alteration of hormone profiles."


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9682182


    Additionally, it doesn't seem to affect adrenaline much either.


     


    "It doesn’t have significant effect on adrenaline, therefore doesn’t induce those effects associated with adrenaline such as sweatiness, elevated heart rate and blood pressure."


    http://www.mindnutrition.com/articles/what-is-modafinil-and-how-does-it-work

    My personal blog : healthbydiet.net

  • John BrissonJohn Brisson The Legend Formerly Known as Ron Swanson ✭✭✭
    edited March 2014


    It certainly doesn't increase cortisol. See the study below. Cortisol secretion was unchanged with administration of modafinil.


     


    "These data show that the alerting property of modafinil is not related to an alteration of hormone profiles."


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9682182


    Additionally, it doesn't seem to affect adrenaline much either.


     


    "It doesn’t have significant effect on adrenaline, therefore doesn’t induce those effects associated with adrenaline such as sweatiness, elevated heart rate and blood pressure."


    http://www.mindnutrition.com/articles/what-is-modafinil-and-how-does-it-work




     


    There is a few problems with the study that you mentioned in relation to adrenal fatigue. The test was done on an extremely small sample (8 men), that were healthy and not suffering from adrenal fatigue at the time. Also the study was done with two sleep deprived nights only, where they were able to get some sleep, and having a night of full sleep the night before the trails. For this study to be accurate, it would have to be done with a lot of people, over a longer period of time, and done with both healthy and sick people. Of course healthy people had no changes when they took modafinil for two days, because it was only two freaking days.


     


    I also need to be corrected though modafinil may or may not directly effect adrenaline it does effect norepinephrine, therefore producing a similar response. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2654794/.


     


    Though norepinephrine does cause the increase in alertness, too much causes to many fight or flight responses which releases other stress hormones and over a period of time can lead to adrenal fatigue.


    My book Fix Your Gut, is offered on Amazon for $9.99.

     

    I also offer coaching:  http://fixyourgut.com/health-coaching-information/

     

    Please join or like the Fix your Gut Facebook. Also please add me on twitter @FixYourGutJB.

     

    http://www.fixyourgut.com

     

  • I would caution anyone reading these posts to relate modafinil, or any of its variants to a stimulant.  Provigil and Nuvigil are not stimulants in any sense of the word.  At best, research has shown that the MOA is a reaction in sodium and calcium channel functions across the brain.  I agree Modafinil is an amazing and very powerful drug, but it is not a stimulant.  You may feel like it is, but the high you are experiencing is not a result of an increase of any hormones.   Therefore, when taking adrenal fatigue into consideration in combination with Modafinil, GO SEE AN ENDOCRINOLOGIST.  Modafinil does an amazing job masking underlying symptoms that can cause damage. 


  • It's more likely that an accumulation of sleep debt because of the wakefulness promoting properties of nuvigil/modafinil would cause "adrenal fatigue"


  • A lack of sleep can be a part of Adrenal Insufficiency as the adrenals do not have time to properly "recharge".  What a person needs to understand that the "fatigue" is a result of low levels of the following hormones.  DHEA/S, Progesterone, Androstenedione, Estrone, and ultimately DHT. Your body ( adrenal glands ) simply isnt producing enough hormones to effectively manage stress, which leads to extreme fatigue after completing normal daily tasks.  It is important to know that blood tests alone cannot provide an adequate diagnosis.  Most of the hormones can only be detected through a saliva test.  


  • Didn't see any evidence for a link between adrenal fatigue and modafinil non-responsiveness.


     


    There is a study however that links non-responsiveness to modafinil to genetic SNPs - specifically:


     



     



    SNPS

    Interestingly, there seem to be some groups for which modafinil does little, and this ineffectiveness may not be due to counterfeit product or poor self-monitoring, but genetics (Bodenmann et al 2009, see also Bodenmann & Landolt 2010 on the same subjects):



    Two-time 100 mg modafinil potently improved vigor and well-being, and maintained baseline performance with respect to executive functioning and vigilant attention throughout sleep deprivation in Val/Val [G/G] genotype subjects but was hardly effective in subjects with the Met/Met [A/A] genotype.



    The genotype variation specifically refers to the Rs4680 SNP, which is one of the SNPs that services like 23andMe test for. So someone could sign up for 23andMe testing and only start buying modafinil if the results are favorable; considering that 23andMe sometimes holds sales at $100 or $200 and that one could easily spend this much on a single order of modafinil, testing first may not be a bad idea. But on the other hand: anecdotes are hard to come by of people who have used modafinil, been genotyped, and checked that SNP, yet I have been told by 2 Val/Val users that sublingual Modalert/Waklert did nothing for them (personal communication; 2) and by 4 Met/Met users that modafinil worked for them and there are 2 further anecdotes on Hacker News & Reddit (12). Besides the dubiousness of such a large effect size from a single SNP, SNP correlations frequently disappear, like happened when 12 highly cited IQ-related SNPs failed to replicate in 2011 (replication being the coin of science). As of 23 May 2013, there do not seem to have been any followup citing studies of this SNP association. Given the weakness of the evidence, one would probably have to be on the razor’s edge of deciding to try or not try modafinil before your result would make the difference.


     



     


    More info here: http://www.gwern.net/Modafinil

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  • stensten
    edited March 2015

    What is a good starting dosage of modafinil - to improve mind performance? Like I am reading here it would worth trying with 50mg and go up to 200mg? How is it working for you the best? And what do you notice diferently in compare of not using it?


  • I have that SNP and modafinil certainly affects me. 


     


     




    Didn't see any evidence for a link between adrenal fatigue and modafinil non-responsiveness.


     


    There is a study however that links non-responsiveness to modafinil to genetic SNPs - specifically:


     


     


    More info here: http://www.gwern.net/Modafinil



    My personal blog : healthbydiet.net

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