Straight Dope On Hgh, Steroids, And Igf-1?

Anyone know a good source or have advice on the debates and information surrounding the use of androgenic anabolic steroids, human growth hormone, insulin-like growth factor, and any other associated drugs/supplements/steroids/hormones?


 


There are certain benefits, as I understand to having a good amount of muscle mass (cancer survival rates, etc.), as well as the social benefits (social-hacking anyone?)... but then there's the potential risks, e.g. - heart attack at age 50.


 


So, what are the major points in the debate (oh, how I wish there was a debate wiki, so I could catch-up on the various debates going on... *goes to Google to see if there is one* - Debatepedia, hmm)?


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Comments

  • edited August 2013

    "So, what are the major points in the debate"


     


    -don't judge other people's personal choices, there is no such thing as "natty" (it is all just a spectrum)


    -if you choose to take restricted substances, do lots of blood work and start low


    -watch all the video clips at this link (particularly "and the dead ones")


    Reigning Former Inner Balance "Mad Monk" Champion... :-P 

  • Start your research with this - http://www.amazon.com/Anabolics-E-Book-Edition-ebook/dp/B005II5Z7M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1377885137&sr=8-1&keywords=anabolics


     


    Go from there. Seriously though, that's the bible on the subject.


  • edited September 2013


    Anyone know a good source or have advice on the debates and information surrounding the use of androgenic anabolic steroids, human growth hormone, insulin-like growth factor, and any other associated drugs/supplements/steroids/hormones?


     


    There are certain benefits, as I understand to having a good amount of muscle mass (cancer survival rates, etc.), as well as the social benefits (social-hacking anyone?)... but then there's the potential risks, e.g. - heart attack at age 50.


     


    So, what are the major points in the debate (oh, how I wish there was a debate wiki, so I could catch-up on the various debates going on... *goes to Google to see if there is one* - Debatepedia, hmm)?






    On what debate?  There's countless 'debates' on the subject.  And this 'debate wiki' you're looking for exists, they're referred to as message boards ;)


    Check wannabebig's anabolic subforum for some good, general, grounded discussion on the basics.  Check mind/muscle for esoteric stuff.  Patrick Arnold and Conte for ethics.


  • Some of the negative side effects, assuming everything with the administration of the hormones is done 100 percent correctly -


     


    Testicular atrophy (reversible... but still happens)


    Tendon/ligament damage due to strength increasing at an unnatural rate


    Loss of libido while on cycle


    Psychological effects of getting big and strong while on cycle, then losing a portion while off cycle, creating a habitual need to keep doing it. This is one of the biggest down sides, and what makes it psychologically addicting. Most guys say they'll just do one or two cycles, and here they are 20 years later and still doing it.


     


    Forgetting all of the other obstacles, like making sure you're getting legit drugs, they are what they say they are and they aren't laced with something else, they don't have contaminants or heavy metals, you create your cycle correctly and have a good PCT, you have the proper lab work done during cycle and you administer everything 100 percent correctly, when you come off you will still lose a significant portion of what you worked for, can you handle that?


  • edited September 2013

    Don't know how I missed this thread.


     


     


    "Better living through intelligence and chemistry".


     


    That pretty much sums up my view.


    I absolutely agree with Mr.Smith that life is a spectrum of Perceived Value.


     


    Main points?


    This is YOUR life. You have YOUR goals, and YOUR values.


    Only YOU can decide what ACTIONS move you closer to or further away from your goals/values.


     


    Ok, now that we have gotten the not so obvious out of the way....


     


    Take the time to get a good source...it out there.


    If I think your intelligent I will at least get you started in the right direction.


     


    Intelligent use of Anabolics and HGH/I-gf1 definitely have positive contributions.


    Again the key word is "intelligent".


     


    Desp puts out some good points.


     


    "Testicular atrophy (reversible... but still happens) Yes, defnitely reversible.


    Tendon/ligament damage due to strength increasing at an unnatural rate Keep your movements controlled. It's not called "throwing weights", it's "lifting" weights.


    Use a tempo of no faster than 3-4 seconds up, contract for 1 sec, 3 sec. down and you will have no problems with joints or ligaments. Do you have the discipline to do this or is your ego or that hot chick in yoga pants going to make you throw it?


     


     


    Loss of libido while on cycle  (Done right it is quite the opposite)


    Psychological effects of getting big and strong while on cycle, then losing a portion while off cycle, creating a habitual need to keep doing it. This is one of the biggest down sides, and what makes it psychologically addicting. Most guys say they'll just do one or two cycles, and here they are 20 years later and still doing it.


    Again, this will depend to a large extent on where your self esteem comes from. If you have low self esteem, no other solid source for self worth other than the size of your body then, like money, this will may only serve to exacerbate your current paradigms. If however, you have the philosophy that does not BASE your self worth on the size of your muscles, you will be fine.


    Understand that building your body is like any mental skill or process of mastery. 2 steps forward, 1 step back.


    Again, understand why you are pursuing this avenue. Does it fit into your overall lifestyle? I don't know.


    Balanced, intelligent moderation is paramount...period.


    Ask if this implementation is an end in itself, or is it an addition to your pursuit of your overall ideal of success, which should take into account the quality of  


    family, relationships, finances, health and fitness, personal/intellectual goals, material goals, spiritual goals, experiences, etc.


    If this decision in anyway overly impedes on any other of these areas then maybe it is not the correct decision. On the other hand, if it does not take away from any of these areas, and increases even one or many of these areas then maybe the subject is worth further exploration/education.


     


    Spend as much time off, as you do on...cycle on and off and let your body stay in the loop.


    There is amazing information on how to radically increase the health of your body on and off cycle.


    Including the use of intelligent and strategical use of HGH/igf-1 on your "off time".


    But that is a whole other discussion.


     


    Here is an unbiased news report on the use of Anabolics.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TkKKOK9pDw


     


    P.S. I do not personally endorse the use of AAS unless you are 30+years old or tests show you have naturally low test levels. 


    Holy shit I'm awesome.

  • Carter, how do you monitor your blood tests?


  • Also anyone interested in this topic should check out the Joe Rogan podcast with Victor Conte. 99% of every major league athlete uses something.


  • RodRod The Rodfather


    Also anyone interested in this topic should check out the Joe Rogan podcast with Victor Conte. 99% of every major league athlete uses something.




     


    Yea, I don't blame them. I'll use something too but perhaps something safer. I want to try some Pangamic Acid

    Everything I learned about "biohacking" has been baby steps to "circadian biology", that's where the real biohacking comes in. You can buy a bunch of cool shit to "hack" but if you don't have context, you're not winning. Paleo is just a brand now and too many have opinions, it's on you to read and reread the material to not only find truth but to connect the dots. Much love to everyone who has helped me on my journey for restoring my health, please keep in touch. Feel free to message me with health questions [email protected] 

  • edited September 2013


    Carter, how do you monitor your blood tests?


    I get them checked Desp, pre, during and post.

    I don't do anything crazy. Im not stepping on stage or playing professional sports for a living so no need to push limits. I don't compete with anyone else but myself so I don't have to play by anyone's else's rules. I keep away from any hepatotoxic options and am very moderate in what i do use. I use for increased quality of life and it fits my lifestyle.

    I'm fine with most people having anabolics brushed with a broad stroke of negativity. Imo it's better that way:)

    Like anything, it's a risk/reward ratio, and where intelligence and temperament are titraded into the equation the balance tips in the favor of reward and reduces risk.

    Just my 2 billion.

    Holy shit I'm awesome.

  • Yea, I don't blame them. I'll use something too but perhaps something safer. I want to try some Pangamic Acid








    Despite serious safety concerns, pangamic acid is used for improving exercise endurance; treating asthma and related diseases, skin conditions including eczema, lung problems, painful nerve and joint conditions, cancer, and arthritis; improving the oxygenation of the heart, brain, and other vital organs; and “detoxifying” the body. It is also used for treating alcoholism, hangovers, and fatigue; protecting against urban air pollutants; extending cell life; strengthening the immune system; lowering blood cholesterol levels; and assisting in hormone regulation.


    How does it work?

    Since there is no standard identity for the chemicals in pangamic acid, how it might work is unknown. Although pangamic acid is also called vitamin B15, there is no research that shows it is required by the body, as the term “vitamin” would suggest.




    Interesting.

    Holy shit I'm awesome.



  •  


    If I think your intelligent 




     


    lol ;)


     





    I'm fine with most people having anabolics brushed with a broad stroke of negativity. Imo it's better that way:)

     




     


    How on earth are you okay with most people brushing aside something that you find enhances quality of life?  I'm all for (rational)selfishness, but damn..


     


     




    Yea, I don't blame them. I'll use something too but perhaps something safer. I want to try some Pangamic Acid




     


    Never heard of it, and the wiki page is about as scathing as I've ever seen a nutritional compuond entry... were you being serious or is my sarcastimeter broken?

  • RodRod The Rodfather

    No, I'm dead serous!


     


    It was banned because the Russians used it in the olympics and smoked everyone. 


     


    http://www.askdrgarland.com/?p=378


     


     


    Actually, Calcium D Glucurate and DMG make Pangamic Acid in the body. 


     


    http://www.onlineholistichealth.com/supplements-2/vitamins/vitamin-b15-pangamic-acid.html


    Everything I learned about "biohacking" has been baby steps to "circadian biology", that's where the real biohacking comes in. You can buy a bunch of cool shit to "hack" but if you don't have context, you're not winning. Paleo is just a brand now and too many have opinions, it's on you to read and reread the material to not only find truth but to connect the dots. Much love to everyone who has helped me on my journey for restoring my health, please keep in touch. Feel free to message me with health questions [email protected] 



  • No, I'm dead serous!


     


    It was banned because the Russians used it in the olympics and smoked everyone. 


     


    http://www.askdrgarland.com/?p=378


     


     


    Actually, Calcium D Glucurate and DMG make Pangamic Acid in the body. 


     


    http://www.onlineholistichealth.com/supplements-2/vitamins/vitamin-b15-pangamic-acid.html




     


     


     


    Why have I never heard of this?


     


    Research also suggests that DMG is beneficial in the healing of skin disorders, circulatory insufficiencies, epilepsy, migraines, tension headaches, vascular headaches, autoimmune diseases, asthma, and allergies.


     


    And why aren't you taking it already?

  • You haven't heard of it because it somehow managed to remain elusive for so long, or because it's worthless.  Hopefully you can arrive at the proper conclusion.. 


     


    Rod- you link to some quack site.  Could you provide me a single, positive, *legit* reference?  I mean that article you link has some dude telling you it's the holy grail, and he doesn't list a single reference at the end; that is the hallmark of 'suspect' in this industry.




  • You haven't heard of it because it somehow managed to remain elusive for so long, or because it's worthless.  Hopefully you can arrive at the proper conclusion.. 


     


    Rod- you link to some quack site.  Could you provide me a single, positive, *legit* reference?  I mean that article you link has some dude telling you it's the holy grail, and he doesn't list a single reference at the end; that is the hallmark of 'suspect' in this industry.




     


    Either that is it's because it DOES work, and the FDA has banned it (which they have).

  • RodRod The Rodfather


    Why have I never heard of this?


     


    Research also suggests that DMG is beneficial in the healing of skin disorders, circulatory insufficiencies, epilepsy, migraines, tension headaches, vascular headaches, autoimmune diseases, asthma, and allergies.


     


    And why aren't you taking it already?




     


    I am taking some, Dr.B has some in my day cream ( hormone creme for adrenals and other stuff ) When I finish and get on the maintenance dose, I'll take if If I don't have any. I'm taking a SHIT load of supplements and I don't want to over do it right now .


     


     


     




    You haven't heard of it because it somehow managed to remain elusive for so long, or because it's worthless.  Hopefully you can arrive at the proper conclusion.. 


     


    Rod- you link to some quack site.  Could you provide me a single, positive, *legit* reference?  I mean that article you link has some dude telling you it's the holy grail, and he doesn't list a single reference at the end; that is the hallmark of 'suspect' in this industry.




     


    I'm sorry, this quack shit is all I got =( , I herd about this from Dr.B in one of his lectures so I trust it, he fixed my adrenals in 4 months and going to town on my brain balancing so he is credible to me. Wish I could do more, sorry! I think I saw a pubmed article on DMG and VO2max calling bullshit so that's something to think about. 


     


     


     




    Either that is it's because it DOES work, and the FDA has banned it (which they have).




     


    yea, FDA has banned a lot of "good" stuff lol 

    Everything I learned about "biohacking" has been baby steps to "circadian biology", that's where the real biohacking comes in. You can buy a bunch of cool shit to "hack" but if you don't have context, you're not winning. Paleo is just a brand now and too many have opinions, it's on you to read and reread the material to not only find truth but to connect the dots. Much love to everyone who has helped me on my journey for restoring my health, please keep in touch. Feel free to message me with health questions [email protected] 



  • Either that is it's because it DOES work, and the FDA has banned it (which they have).




     


    They ban things for lots of reasons, but if you pay attn you'll see that the good stuff they regulate, from testosterone to acid, still have large followings because they work. 


    Look you guys can take what you want, but the burden of proof on this stuff is on you - and I don't mean 'prove it to me', but rather that you should be proving it to yourself before taking something that doesn't have an established track record.    A better way to have approached this would simply be: what is teh most convincing thing to you here?  A single person's recommendation?

  • lol ;)

     


     

    How on earth are you okay with most people brushing aside something that you find enhances quality of life?  I'm all for (rational)selfishness, but damn..





    Oh shit Johnny boy, you know exactly what I'm talking about. I mean this in the best way possible but the general public joe is kind of idiotic in many of their own ways. The less meat heads we have messing around with actions that take some significant fore thought within specific parameters that can be so easily tied to ones ego and self image the better. Right now law enforcement keeps the pursuit of individual users of these substances at arms length. They are not interested in the average Joe and if they really wanted to they could cause a major shit storm. In fact, I know many law enforcement individuals that do indeed choose to enhance their physical boundaries in this way. . However, if trailer park Bob and Sue and all of their neighbors start abusing these hormones then the noose can and will only tighten on those of us who engage rationally and for constructive purposes.


    Less people engaging means less chance of negative outcomes.

    Ya dig you sexy bitch?

    Holy shit I'm awesome.

  • So are we saying 'Drugs are Good' in a Mr Mackey from southpark voice?


     


    480x360xsp_0204_01_v61.jpg.pagespeed.ic.


    Katolotus

    MMA Fighter

     

    SUCCESS: A lot of little things done well



  • Oh shit Johnny boy, you know exactly what I'm talking about. I mean this in the best way possible but the general public joe is kind of idiotic in many of their own ways. The less meat heads we have messing around with actions that take some significant fore thought within specific parameters that can be so easily tied to ones ego and self image the better. Right now law enforcement keeps the pursuit of individual users of these substances at arms length. They are not interested in the average Joe and if they really wanted to they could cause a major shit storm. In fact, I know many law enforcement individuals that do indeed choose to enhance their physical boundaries in this way. . However, if trailer park Bob and Sue and all of their neighbors start abusing these hormones then the noose can and will only tighten on those of us who engage rationally and for constructive purposes.


    Less people engaging means less chance of negative outcomes.

    Ya dig you sexy bitch?




     


    I dig!  I used to see it that way but don't anymore.  What you say is true for particular compounds (right now, DMAA is the poster-child), and I used to be furious when my dipshit customers (I ran a supplement-outfit) would talk about prohormones while buying protein/creatine ("you guys are gonna ruin it!  you're not the type that're ready!")


    Over time though, my thoughts on this have changed.  While it can be incredibly frustrating when a particular compound or class of compounds you were partial to get regulated/restricted, teh reality is that - IMO* - the more ppl that get into this stuff, the harder it will be for busy-body agencies to hold back reasonably-safe products that people want.  So, yeah, where I used to want things kept quiet on the sidelines, I see it differently now and actually like seeing 'mass adoption' by generic folk.  


    (*IMO, of course.  I feel this way because, particularly in an information age wherein there's such an abundance of ppl w/ disposable income, these luxury/lifestyle products will continue to become more popular and that will actually make it harder for the compounds to be regulated (whether it's because a critical mass of 'normal folk' are into the products, or because the market-demand being stifled by regulation leads to 'alternative' approaches as we see in all teh 'gray' markets from nootropics to prohormones to spices/bath salts.  Hell, using spice as an example - I HATE knowing how many ppl are out there using random cannabinoid agents that're being sprayed on herbal products and sold at gas stations, *however* I think it really brings to a head the fact that ppl will choose for themselves and, however delayed, I think regulations/restrictions will eventually adapt; in the case of the nasty cannabinoid 'spice' compounds, despite how dangerous their short-term popularity may be, it can really only help easing restrictions on *real* marijuana.)


    So, yeah, in the short-term it can be cool for some, who're the 'in folk'/early-adopters, to be the only ones privy to particular compounds/classes.  But, *IMO*, these compounds hold SOOOooo much promise for enhancing the human experience that anything putting them to the forefront of the public consciousness is a good thing ;)


     


     


     


     


    katolotus, on 26 Sept 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:


     




    So are we saying 'Drugs are Good' in a Mr Mackey from southpark voice?


     


    480x360xsp_0204_01_v61.jpg.pagespeed.ic.


     


    ^LOL!  Drugs are just chemicals - tools for strong-biohacking, if you will.  They're not inherently good/bad, just like cars/guns/etc; it's how they're used :D


  • edited September 2013


    I dig! I used to see it that way but don't anymore. What you say is true for particular compounds (right now, DMAA is the poster-child), and I used to be furious when my dipshit customers (I ran a supplement-outfit) would talk about prohormones while buying protein/creatine ("you guys are gonna ruin it! you're not the type that're ready!")

    Over time though, my thoughts on this have changed. While it can be incredibly frustrating when a particular compound or class of compounds you were partial to get regulated/restricted, teh reality is that - IMO* - the more ppl that get into this stuff, the harder it will be for busy-body agencies to hold back reasonably-safe products that people want. So, yeah, where I used to want things kept quiet on the sidelines, I see it differently now and actually like seeing 'mass adoption' by generic folk.

    (*IMO, of course. I feel this way because, particularly in an information age wherein there's such an abundance of ppl w/ disposable income, these luxury/lifestyle products will continue to become more popular and that will actually make it harder for the compounds to be regulated (whether it's because a critical mass of 'normal folk' are into the products, or because the market-demand being stifled by regulation leads to 'alternative' approaches as we see in all teh 'gray' markets from nootropics to prohormones to spices/bath salts. Hell, using spice as an example - I HATE knowing how many ppl are out there using random cannabinoid agents that're being sprayed on herbal products and sold at gas stations, *however* I think it really brings to a head the fact that ppl will choose for themselves and, however delayed, I think regulations/restrictions will eventually adapt; in the case of the nasty cannabinoid 'spice' compounds, despite how dangerous their short-term popularity may be, it can really only help easing restrictions on *real* marijuana.)

    So, yeah, in the short-term it can be cool for some, who're the 'in folk'/early-adopters, to be the only ones privy to particular compounds/classes. But, *IMO*, these compounds hold SOOOooo much promise for enhancing the human experience that anything putting them to the forefront of the public consciousness is a good thing ;)



    Oh snap.

    Had no idea you were this much in the know.

    Hey, I totally see where your coming from and have to agree on those counts.

    Whatever way the pendulum swings as long as get what I want, I'll be happy.

    God damn Johnny, you just hit a new level of coolio.


    [

    Holy shit I'm awesome.


  • Katolotus

    MMA Fighter

     

    SUCCESS: A lot of little things done well






  •  


     


    I'm going to assume you actually watched that movie Kato.


    It's been awhile since I have seen it but the older brother who wants to be a wrestler is exactly the kind of person I was talking about.


    Unbalanced individuals which you can easily tell this individual is, getting into this arena.


    I honestly see these substances in the same way I see money.


    As Johnny boy alluded to, neither one is inherently good or evil, it is the individual who makes it so.


    Like money, if you have currently existing "bad money management" skills, an increase in money will only serve to exacerbate existing conditions and will most likely when every thing is said and done will end up in more debt than when they started.


    Instead of money management skills, in this case it is personal management skills.


    Unless the engagement of these compounds is met by somewhat stable emotional individuals with character and at least some degree of personal management skills/habits then negative consequences, albeit in this video ends in an extreme, have increased probability of manifesting.


    On the other hand, if used for constructive purposes, from stability and productive habits of character then money or chemistry can be used as building blocks, rather than wrecking balls.

    Holy shit I'm awesome.

  • I like you're thinking on this. I'd be all for making drugs legal in sport if it wasn't for the idiots that would obviously OD on the the stuff trying to push it too far. I think that's the only issue, but it's the same a tobacco and alcohol, people die who abuse it and those two don't have any real advantages other than tax dollars.


     


    Not sure if hard drugs like cocaine and heroin can be used safely though, although my limited knowledge on those would keep me well awayI do know they've been used in the past as medicine.


     


    Interesting subject.


    Katolotus

    MMA Fighter

     

    SUCCESS: A lot of little things done well



  • I like you're thinking on this. I'd be all for making drugs legal in sport if it wasn't for the idiots that would obviously OD on the the stuff trying to push it too far.


     




     


    I think it's quite the opposite. To start with a VAST majority of all major athletes take something. It's like anything else, when the stakes are bigger the likely hood of cheating goes up, but on the other hand, is it really cheating, since they're all on it?


     


    If drugs were 'allowed' in sports, that means you wouldn't have people administering it in the shadows and paying off inspectors, it would be safer for everyone involved because you'd have the best doctors monitoring it, you would also have an advancement in discovery of new more powerful, safer substances.

  • Would doctors be monitoring everyone. Seems unlikely, it'll be the guys coming through, without the money, trying to make it and pushing it too much.


    Katolotus

    MMA Fighter

     

    SUCCESS: A lot of little things done well



  • Would doctors be monitoring everyone. Seems unlikely, it'll be the guys coming through, without the money, trying to make it and pushing it too much.




     


    The point is they monitor it even less now, because of the legality and the stigma, than they would if it were legal.


     


    And at the end of the day, unless you're a slave, you have the right to put whatever you want into your own body.

  • ^very well said.  Even IF entrusting people w/ the right to choose leads to some making bad choices for themselves, that's a better scenario than being forcibly 'protected' from oneself (well, provided you believe in things like freedom and all that ;) )


  • Ideally you would have both categories.


    One drug tested and one anything goes.


    Holy shit I'm awesome.

  •  




    The point is they monitor it even less now, because of the legality and the stigma, than they would if it were legal.



     



     


    Exactly.  Prohibition/regulation may sound good to some in theory, but in reality it doesn't even achieve its stated aims (and, again, even if it did that certainly doesn't make it right, unless you're of the mindset that you need your hand held as an adult)


     




     


     


    And at the end of the day, unless you're a slave, you have the right to put whatever you want into your own body.



     



     


    I like you :)  I'll take it a step further- free men have the right to do ANYTHING they please, so long as such things do not impede the same right of other men.  It really is that simple.


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