Update: In Deep Ketosis And The Scale Isn't Moving - Any Idea?

Hey everyone,


 


This is an update to my previous post: http://forum.bulletproofexec.com/index.php?/topic/6848-in-deep-ketosis-and-the-scale-isnt-moving-any-idea/


 


The scale has still been around the same, give or a take a pound or two. At the request of some posters, I went and got blood tests done for my TSH and other stuff. Here are my results:


 


TSH - 3.52 (.450 - 4.50)


 


Total Cholesterol - 252


Triglycerides - 87


HDL - 58


LDL - 177


 


CRP - 2.0


 


Does my TSH level suggest I am hypothyroid? And are these safe cholesterol levels? Why did my CRP increase?


 


On the Slow Carb Diet, my CRP was 0.7 (even though I weighed more than I do now) and my LDL was much lower @ 102. Triglycerides and HDL were 95 and 46, respectively back then.


 


I am making a concerted effort to eat more and see what happens with my weight. I havent been GAINING, and my energy levels are great so I guess it's not all bad, I just need to tweak to get the fat loss going again. I also want to make sure I am healthy.


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Comments

  • EAT more, 2000 a day is a good benchmark. No cheese.


     


    Not super qualified on this but... In regards to cholesterol I believe total cholesterol does not matter nearly as much as as your HDL to LDL ratio. Your HDL should be as high as possible and LDL as low as possible. HDL cleans out the junk and LDL builds up in your bloodstream. Your HDL:LDL does not look good at all. 


     


    Dunno anything about TSH or hypothyroidism. 




  • EAT more, 2000 a day is a good benchmark. No cheese.


     


    Not super qualified on this but... In regards to cholesterol I believe total cholesterol does not matter nearly as much as as your HDL to LDL ratio. Your HDL should be as high as possible and LDL as low as possible. HDL cleans out the junk and LDL builds up in your bloodstream. Your HDL:LDL does not look good at all. 


     


    Dunno anything about TSH or hypothyroidism. 




    Thanks, I am going to cut out the cheese. I should also get an LDL particle count test as well to see what kind of particles I am (large buoyant vs small dense).

  • Well TSH is not the best marker but unfortunately it's the one most doctors use.  If you're interested in the thyroid issues check out Why Do I Still Have Thyroid Symptoms? by Dr. Kharrazian.


     


    However, you say you are in deep ketosis, but have you checked your blood ketones?  If not, you don't know.  The ketostix aren't good because they only check for Acetoacetate but you want to know your BHB levels.  And those can be completely different.  Jimmy Moore has tested the two quite a bit and found little to no correlation.  So first, make sure you are actually in ketosis.  And if you haven't read any of Volek or Phinney's books, pick up the Art & Science of Low Carb Performance.  It is a pretty short book but packed with details and information about eating a ketogenic diet.


     


    Lastly, even though I've been eating ketogenic for some time now, I'm not convinced it is for everybody and I don't know if I believe the theory that it drives thyroid function down.  But there could be some underlying issues as well.  Have you had any genetic testing to see if you are ApoE-4?  People that are 4/4 usually don't metabolize fats as well and a high fat diet may not be for them.  That is a pretty rare genotype, but still worth investigating.  So just play around with it.  You can try adding in some starches as Paul Jaminet recommends (Perfect Health Diet) or just try Dave's BulletProof diet which also adds in some carbs.  


     


    Ok, one final note, and I'm adding this because it's something I still deal with.  Don't think you have to be eating zero carbs to be in nutritional ketosis.  You can probably handle 50 grams or more of carbs but that's why you need to get a glucose monitor and blood ketone strips so you can test yourself.  Test your ketones, then eat X number of carbs and test again.  Keep doing this (over a few days) until you find your limit.  But live a little....a sweet potato with lots of butter (and cinnamon would help) will not necessarily take you out of ketosis.  


     


    Oh, and sorry, I keep thinking of other things.....how is your protein intake.  Some people are very sensitive to protein and just remember that excess protein can knock you out of ketosis pretty quickly through gluconeogenesis (the body can't store protein so it is converted to glucose).  Again, everyone is different so you have to play with it and see where you're at.  But watch what you eat and shoot for 70-75% of your calories from good fats.  Remember, that's calories and 1 gram of fat has 9 calories versus 4 calories for 1 gram of protein and carbs.  So for instance, say you eat a piece of cheese that has 7 grams of fat, 6 grams of protein and no carbs.  At first glance you might think it's about a 50/50 ratio.  But 7g fat = 63 calories and 6g protein has 24 calories.  So out of 87 calories consumed, you had 72% as fat (63/87 = 0.72) and is right around the ratio you are looking for.


     


    Hope that helps and good luck!  


  • And don't worry about your cholesterol, it looks fine.  If you really want to get into the detail get a more comprehensive lipid panel that will give you the size of your LDL.  But really, you should be looking at the ratio of triglycerides to HDL and you want to keep that at 2 or under.  Yours is 87/58 = 1.5 which is fine.  Ignore the total cholesterol, we don't have much (if any) evidence to say that it's an indicator of heart disease so whatever you do, don't let the doc convince you to go on statins.  If you're concerned about your cholesterol go read Cholesterol Clarity by Jimmy Moore.


  • Karl,


    Do you know what SNP I should look for to find the APOE-4 variations?  I have my raw data from 23andMe.  I know that Volek and Phinney have done studies on genetic factors that make some people do better on a ketogenic diet than others, I just haven't had time to really look into that interesting topic.  If you have any helpful links that you've accumulated, please post them.  I have also read the Volek/Phinney book you referenced and am working on their other book right now.  The scale isn't moving for me, either (I want to lose about 10 lbs).  I will be purchasing a blood glucose/ketone monitor shortly, although if I'm not in ketosis right now, that would be just crazy (my protein and carb intake are both pretty low).  Though I am in my mid-40's, which is a time when women's hormonal issues -- not just estrogen/progesterone -- can go slightly out of whack, even for healthy and fit women like me.  I am on Armour thyroid for low T3.  


    Thanks.


    Mary

  • Mary, I don't know the SNP off the top of my head but look for something about Alzheimer's on 23andMe.  They use the ApoE gene as a marker for Alzheimer's but it's also a greater marker of fat metabolism.  For some background, listen to the Livin' LaVida Low Carb podcast where Jimmy Moore interviews William Davis for his Cholesterol book.  There is a lot of good genetic info in there.  I'll try and answer more after work today.  Just enjoying my BP coffee before work right now :)


  • Thanks, Karl. I too am at work. I have the APO E SNP listed at home from a couple of apps I ran my raw data through, but I wasn't sure if it was the same one you referred to -- the APO E-4 SNP. If it is, I am ++ for the wild type (no mutation). I'll listen to the podcast you mentioned, then do more research myself. This is interesting stuff.

    Mary

  • Mary, have you looked at the data analysis on the 23andMe page?  They aren't taking new customers right now (thanks FDA) but your data is still available.  Find the one for Alzheimer's and it will tell if you are ApoE 2, 3, or 4 and whether you are homozygous or heterzygous.  If you happen to be heterozygous with ApoE/4 you'd have to do some more research because I'm not sure which one is dominant.  I'm a 3/3 so I didn't research it any further.  And you're right, it is definitely interesting to learn about this stuff.  Unfortunately I don't have the time I'd like to research all this because I work full time and taking pre-med courses at a community college at night so I get a lot of my education from podcasts and then reading when I have time.  The problem is I can really get caught up in this stuff and spend hours reading about it :)


  • I did the 23andMe test last summer, thank goodness , plus I downloaded the raw data a while back. Like you, I have been following what the FDA has been imposing on 23anMe (yeah, nice. Not). I'll go look up that tonight and see what I have! Sometimes a website called SNPedia has more information, but not always.


    Good luck with your pre med classes. My nephew wants to do Biochemistry/pre med, possibly so he can be a surgeon (we'll see:) ). I'd like him to go toward alternative medicine, of course.

    Mary

  • [sorry to hijack your thread JonnyV, we'll get back on topic when you return to the thread]


     


    Thanks Mary, I'll check out SNPedia.  I used Genetic Genie to determine if I had the folic acid mutation (Dave goes into this somewhat on the podcast with Jayson & Mira Calton) but hadn't seen that site.


     


    Good for your nephew.  As soon as I retire from the Army (about 1.5 years) I'm going to med school to be a naturopathic doctor.  Will be going to school in your neck of the woods....either Bastyr in Kenmore, WA or NCNM in Portland (currently leaning towards Portland).


  • Ditto...I'm also sorry to hijack your post, Jonny.  But with any luck, you will be interested in this at least somewhat.


    Karl, here is the snpedia page for Alzheimer's:  http://snpedia.com/index.php/Alzheimer%27s_disease.


     


    The APOE snps are rs429358 and rs7412.  I luckily don't have the APOE 4 variant (I'm APOe 3 / 3 as well).  I'm going to keep looking into the research on the genetics behind which diet is likely to work best for individuals.  That's interesting to me, and should be to people on this board who are struggling with weight loss.


    Good luck to you on  with your NP career.  Bastyr is one of the best and it's very near where I grew up, so I'm a bit partial.  I personally would rather be in Kailua, where you are currently located :)  It's been unseasonably cold here and Hawaii sounds lovely.


    Mary

  • MarielleMarielle
    edited December 2013

    Here are links to the study I came across about genes that may determine how well an individual does on a carbohydrate restricted diet:

    http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-3-20.pdf, (also http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/3/1/20/)


     


    The genes that appeared to have an impact were:

     


    rs814628 (LIPF), rs2306179 (GYS2), rs5883 (CEPT), rs694066 (GAL)


     


    I couldn't tell from the articles (or maybe I just didn't read them closely) which variation was the wild type and which was the mutation, and which alleles make one more likely to do well on a low-carb diet.  I looked up the snps in my raw data and it looks like 23andMe doesn't test for rs2306179, but does test for the other three.  So I still can't figure out how to interpret my data.


    Mary

  • That is pretty interesting Mary.  I've also been trying to figure out how to build the "perfect" diet based on your genotype but the data is so spread out.  I think the consumer access to the technology is so new that there just aren't many experts out there yet (or at least I don't know who they are).  But if you find some please PM me or email me (just send me a message and I'll send my email), I'd love to check them out.  I did find this site: http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_DNA_tools but I haven't really clicked through to any of the tools yet.


     


    As for schools, I'm really torn.  I'm going to visit both schools in the spring so I can make a decision but just based on location Portland probably has the lead.  It just seems like so many companies, bloggers and foodies in general live in Portland. But it's really going to depend on how I feel about each school.  And sure, come visit Kailua, it's getting kind of chilly here now though because winter is here.  We don't have any AC or heat in our house (which is awesome IMO) so whatever temp it is outside is what it is inside.  And lately it's been around 70 degrees in the mornings so I'm usually freezing and don't want to get out of the warm bed.  But so far I haven't met a single person over here that hasn't thought I was crazy when I tell them I put butter in my coffee (I don't mention the MCT oil because I figure most people don't even know what that is) so it would be nice to run into some other "bulletproof" people on the island.




  • That is pretty interesting Mary.  I've also been trying to figure out how to build the "perfect" diet based on your genotype but the data is so spread out.  I think the consumer access to the technology is so new that there just aren't many experts out there yet (or at least I don't know who they are).  But if you find some please PM me or email me (just send me a message and I'll send my email), I'd love to check them out.  I did find this site: http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_DNA_tools but I haven't really clicked through to any of the tools yet.


     


    As for schools, I'm really torn.  I'm going to visit both schools in the spring so I can make a decision but just based on location Portland probably has the lead.  It just seems like so many companies, bloggers and foodies in general live in Portland. But it's really going to depend on how I feel about each school.  And sure, come visit Kailua, it's getting kind of chilly here now though because winter is here.  We don't have any AC or heat in our house (which is awesome IMO) so whatever temp it is outside is what it is inside.  And lately it's been around 70 degrees in the mornings so I'm usually freezing and don't want to get out of the warm bed.  But so far I haven't met a single person over here that hasn't thought I was crazy when I tell them I put butter in my coffee (I don't mention the MCT oil because I figure most people don't even know what that is) so it would be nice to run into some other "bulletproof" people on the island.




     


    Thanks.  I'm going to bookmark that link.  The list of links on that page includes a few I knew about, but quite a few I haven't seen. I am not shy or squeamish like some people are about running my raw dna data through some of the tools available.  I guess I believe that if "big brother" wanted our dna that badly, it could be obtained through "sneaky" means anyway.  Law Enforcement agencies do it.  Anyway, the worst thing I've found so far is that I have a homozygous mutation for clotting factor 10 (I bruise easily and I know I'm a lousy coagulator; my brother had regular nosebleeds as a kid).  That should be helpful information if I ever need surgery.  


    Have you been to this link, related to methylation/detox mutations?  I really like the "roadmap" it provides once you've identified your specific methylation mutations.  http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm


    I will take your 70 degree weather.  I woke up this morning to a 63 degree house, though the aux heat on our heat pump kicked in and now it's 69 degrees.  We haven't visited Hawaii in about 5 years -- the last time was Maui in January 2009.  I recall hiking in the Kailua area in about 1996 (?).  I think it was a ridge hike.  Hawaii rocks. :)  Hopefully we will visit again in the next couple years.

    Mary

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