Naughty Corner And Time Out

StevoStevo Upgrade in Progress

Has anyone got any bulletproof methods for time outs for 2-3 year olds?


 


We have been trying the naughty corner method, where after they've done something bad, and after two warnings, we put them in a corner with nothing for 3 minutes. Each time they leave it starts again.


 


It didn't work very well today which made me think there might be something better?


 


What does everyone else do in this scenario?


 


Comments

  • Too many warnings.  Put something that they really "prize" in time out instead. 


  • This was a big problem before I learned how to make BP ice cream.  I can seriously influence a lot of behavior just by offering to make it.  I was a big time-outer disciplinarian type but I don't think it really helped any - positive reinforcement always works better for my kids.  


  • SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭

    My parenting advice isn't the most popular around here, but I'll give you my take on it if you want.


     


    First off, I've got a question. Why is it you feel the need to punish your kid?


    "I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

     

    Let's be friends on MyFitnessPal!

  • StevoStevo Upgrade in Progress
    As far as the warnings, it goes:

    1 - ask to do/stop doing x

    2 - if they continue, get down to their level, face to face and say "Can you do good listening? I want you to do/stop doing x"

    3 - if they still continue, get down to their level again and say "I really want you to do/stop doing x but you aren't listening to me. So you can sit in the naughty corner for 3 minutes until I come and get you."


    @pizza - that is an excellent idea! I was just saying the other day that I don't think she eats enough fat. I will get onto this. As far as the rewarding goes, we have made a reward chart where she gets a sticker for doing certain things. There are increasing levels of reward for the number of stickers.


    @Demon - she's going through the phase where she is testing us to see what she can get away with. I wouldn't call it punishment, more discipline.


    Here's an example:

    Me: Can you take your shoes off inside please?

    Her: No!

    Me: Can you do good listening? I want you to take your shoes off inside because you are getting the carpet dirty."

    Her: No!

    Me: I really want you to take your shoes off but you are not listening to me. So you can sit in the naughty corner for 3 minutes until I come and get you.


    Then each time she tries to flee the corner, she goes back and the 3 minutes starts again.
  • SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭
    edited September 2014


    @Demon - she's going through the phase where she is testing us to see what she can get away with. I wouldn't call it punishment, more discipline.


    Here's an example:

    Me: Can you take your shoes off inside please?

    Her: No!

    Me: Can you do good listening? I want you to take your shoes off inside because you are getting the carpet dirty."

    Her: No!

    Me: I really want you to take your shoes off but you are not listening to me. So you can sit in the naughty corner for 3 minutes until I come and get you.


    Then each time she tries to flee the corner, she goes back and the 3 minutes starts again.




     


    In this particular example, why not offer to help her take her shoes off? This way she won't get the carpet dirty and the argument won't even begin. Know what I mean? Or, when you guys get inside from having gone out, maybe stop by the door and take off your shoes all together, so that she learns the habit and sees it modeled by the rest of the family? Something like that may work.


     


    Someday such things won't be necessary. Your daughter will have the wherewithal to do these things automatically, because she'll understand why it's not cool to muddy up the carpet, etc. I understand that kids do sometimes like to test their boundaries. When my kids make a terrible mess or refuse to cooperate with me, I treat them the way I would any other adult in a similar situation; I express my displeasure at their unwillingness to cooperate, or my dismay at the mess in question. "Guys, why did you make a mess with your food? It's all over the walls and it's going to be really hard for me to clean up. I don't like it when you do things like this." Then, later, when I'm annoyed and cleaning up said mess, they'll ask me "What's wrong? Are you mad?" Calmly, I'll explain that, yes, I'm mad, because I don't enjoy cleaning up messes, and that I'd appreciate it if they'd try to avoid making more in the future. I'm firm, let them know that I don't appreciate their behavior, and then it'll take me a while to get over it, perhaps. Just like an argument with any other person. I don't hit them or try to punish them, but I make it clear I'm not happy with what just went down. My kids are 2 and 3, and nine times out of ten, they're getting to the point where they realize it's better to negotiate or comply. This way both parties stay happy.


     


    Kids pick up on all sorts of cues; I don't have to scream at them for them to realize I'm upset about something they've done. They've proven surprisingly perceptive, and more often than not, they'll apologize and even help me clean things up. It's important for me to avoid force or coercion in disciplinary acts, but I am a human being and, sure, things that my kids do sometimes make me super angry haha. Another thing you have to keep in mind is that, while kids do make messes and test boundaries and whatnot, it's all a part of their development. Those messes or tantrums or whatever are teaching them something about a world they don't know a whole lot about. Your reactions to these things will be equally instructive, and are going to inform their reactions and attitudes going forward.


     


    Basically, I don't punish my kids. I don't take away their things or treat them like my property. They're autonomous human beings living under my roof, and I treat them as such. I try and guide them, try to model good behaviors and do my best not to get too mad when they fuck things up haha. Things seem to be working well so far. My 3 year old is beginning to negotiate with me, and his tantrums have almost ceased at this point. The 2 year old is beginning to model his brother's behaviors, and while he can still be pretty rowdy at times, his overall temperament has improved.


     


    Most people approach parenting as a means of inculcating obedience. IMO, that's completely wrong. Obedience is an admirable trait to cultivate in dogs, but I detest almost nothing more in human beings than blind obedience, or obedience as a result of fear. I want to raise kids who are empathetic, and who live thoughtfully-- understanding that their words and actions have the power to strengthen or diminish interpersonal relationships. If a kid grows up not making messes or breaking house rules for fear of punishment, then that's a shame, I think. I'd rather my kids grow up not doing those things because they understand WHY they're a bad idea in the first place.


     


    Sorry, I tried to condense this, but I ended up rambling a little. Lol


    "I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

     

    Let's be friends on MyFitnessPal!

  • Have you read "How To Talk So Kids Will Listen And Listen so Kids Will Talk"? There are a lot of practical communication techniques in it that might help. Then again, my daughter is still only 20 months old so we are only just approaching the stage where she will be testing and pushing limits.


  • StevoStevo Upgrade in Progress

    I appreciate the lengthy reply! Thanks!


     


    You have a great point about offering to help to remove the shoes (important distinction between helping and doing it for them).


     


    I still have some rationalising to do, and will try to find good examples from experts in the field. I am anti-smacking so I would not use that as a teaching / discipline tool. I do think there is a line that once crossed, the child needs to have repercussions. Ignoring your parents reasonable requests is one of them. I understand the argument that they are people too and you should reason with them and let them feel heard, etc.


     


    However, sometimes they just need to do what is asked of them, and if they refuse, some kind of discipline is warranted.


     


    My shoes example was a bit shit. Perhaps, say if the kid was hitting another kid, I would probably not do the three warnings. I also would not try to explain it to them. In that scenario, sitting in the corner for 3 minutes, with some explanation afterwards seems like the right thing to do (at the moment). 


     


    I'm happy to hear things are working for you. For me, it feels a little subtle for my liking. Not to be a downer or anything, if its working for you, keep it up!


  • Danno RedDanno Red Practical Man
    edited September 2014

    Demon, your advice is far more popular than mine!


     


    For Stevo, my advice is simple ... firmly say: "take your shoes off, now. You're ruining the carpet which costs money and is disrespectful." I personally wouldn't say please, but when done I would say thank you. Please, to me, implies there's a choice to not comply--there isn't, in the end, since if she ends up throwing herself on the floor in a tantrum you'll probably have to take the shoes off for her. Thank you, despite the command nature of your "request" shows you appreciate compliance. Just another option for you to try that hasn't ruined my kids, at least in any outwardly obvious way. And in no way is this a spank incident. Whichever approach you choose, be consistent, choose your battles and make sure AHEAD of time that you and your spouse both use it. GL




  • In this particular example, why not offer to help her take her shoes off? This way she won't get the carpet dirty and the argument won't even begin. Know what I mean? Or, when you guys get inside from having gone out, maybe stop by the door and take off your shoes all together, so that she learns the habit and sees it modeled by the rest of the family? Something like that may work.


     


    Someday such things won't be necessary. Your daughter will have the wherewithal to do these things automatically, because she'll understand why it's not cool to muddy up the carpet, etc. I understand that kids do sometimes like to test their boundaries. When my kids make a terrible mess or refuse to cooperate with me, I treat them the way I would any other adult in a similar situation; I express my displeasure at their unwillingness to cooperate, or my dismay at the mess in question. "Guys, why did you make a mess with your food? It's all over the walls and it's going to be really hard for me to clean up. I don't like it when you do things like this." Then, later, when I'm annoyed and cleaning up said mess, they'll ask me "What's wrong? Are you mad?" Calmly, I'll explain that, yes, I'm mad, because I don't enjoy cleaning up messes, and that I'd appreciate it if they'd try to avoid making more in the future. I'm firm, let them know that I don't appreciate their behavior, and then it'll take me a while to get over it, perhaps. Just like an argument with any other person. I don't hit them or try to punish them, but I make it clear I'm not happy with what just went down. My kids are 2 and 3, and nine times out of ten, they're getting to the point where they realize it's better to negotiate or comply. This way both parties stay happy.


     


    Kids pick up on all sorts of cues; I don't have to scream at them for them to realize I'm upset about something they've done. They've proven surprisingly perceptive, and more often than not, they'll apologize and even help me clean things up. It's important for me to avoid force or coercion in disciplinary acts, but I am a human being and, sure, things that my kids do sometimes make me super angry haha. Another thing you have to keep in mind is that, while kids do make messes and test boundaries and whatnot, it's all a part of their development. Those messes or tantrums or whatever are teaching them something about a world they don't know a whole lot about. Your reactions to these things will be equally instructive, and are going to inform their reactions and attitudes going forward.


     


    Basically, I don't punish my kids. I don't take away their things or treat them like my property. They're autonomous human beings living under my roof, and I treat them as such. I try and guide them, try to model good behaviors and do my best not to get too mad when they fuck things up haha. Things seem to be working well so far. My 3 year old is beginning to negotiate with me, and his tantrums have almost ceased at this point. The 2 year old is beginning to model his brother's behaviors, and while he can still be pretty rowdy at times, his overall temperament has improved.


     


    Most people approach parenting as a means of inculcating obedience. IMO, that's completely wrong. Obedience is an admirable trait to cultivate in dogs, but I detest almost nothing more in human beings than blind obedience, or obedience as a result of fear. I want to raise kids who are empathetic, and who live thoughtfully-- understanding that their words and actions have the power to strengthen or diminish interpersonal relationships. If a kid grows up not making messes or breaking house rules for fear of punishment, then that's a shame, I think. I'd rather my kids grow up not doing those things because they understand WHY they're a bad idea in the first place.


     


    Sorry, I tried to condense this, but I ended up rambling a little. Lol




     


    I actually signed up for this forum simply to thank you for this post. I am a young nursery school teacher at a Waldorf-Montessori-RIE fusion school, where much of our curriculum is centred around this ideal. And while, yes, there are times where physically setting a child into motion is necessary in order to guide them toward meaningful outcomes, even my students - between one and three years of age - can be reasoned with, can cooperate with reasonable requests and empathise with causing distress to another person. They are still learning how to interact with others on this planet, and they will never learn respect others if they are ordered around constantly.


     


    My mother raised me largely this same way, and honestly, I'm more well-adjusted socially than most of my friends, who still have difficulties understanding true respect or honesty, giving or receiving, because their parents were forceful, manipulative, and deceitful (even in some of the most "innocent" seeming ways). That's why I teach at a school where I can give children similar experiences to the ones I had as a child, because I'm not ready for my own little ones yet. (: I've got a cognitive science degree to finish, and I'm thinking of taking the full Montessori training programme, which puts a lot of emphasis on meaningful work and interactions, for children and adults alike.


     


    This post got a bit longer than intended. Grok bless your post, and your little ones. (:

  • If you expect "bad" behavior from anyone, they'll give it to you.  You get what you expect and also you get what you accept. 


  • You might want to check out this book, written by the same authors as The Whole Brain Child (bestseller on the scientific research of discipline and our relationships with our kids):

    http://www.amazon.com/No-Drama-Discipline-Whole-Brain-Nurture-Developing/dp/0345548043


    If you live in a large city and get a chance to hear Tina speak, I highly recommend going. She has 3 boys and gets that kids need boundaries and guidance and offers the science to back up her compassionate, gentle approach to discipline (which literally means "to teach").


  • In this particular example, why not offer to help her take her shoes off? This way she won't get the carpet dirty and the argument won't even begin. Know what I mean? Or, when you guys get inside from having gone out, maybe stop by the door and take off your shoes all together, so that she learns the habit and sees it modeled by the rest of the family? Something like that may work.


     


    Someday such things won't be necessary. Your daughter will have the wherewithal to do these things automatically, because she'll understand why it's not cool to muddy up the carpet, etc. I understand that kids do sometimes like to test their boundaries. When my kids make a terrible mess or refuse to cooperate with me, I treat them the way I would any other adult in a similar situation; I express my displeasure at their unwillingness to cooperate, or my dismay at the mess in question. "Guys, why did you make a mess with your food? It's all over the walls and it's going to be really hard for me to clean up. I don't like it when you do things like this." Then, later, when I'm annoyed and cleaning up said mess, they'll ask me "What's wrong? Are you mad?" Calmly, I'll explain that, yes, I'm mad, because I don't enjoy cleaning up messes, and that I'd appreciate it if they'd try to avoid making more in the future. I'm firm, let them know that I don't appreciate their behavior, and then it'll take me a while to get over it, perhaps. Just like an argument with any other person. I don't hit them or try to punish them, but I make it clear I'm not happy with what just went down. My kids are 2 and 3, and nine times out of ten, they're getting to the point where they realize it's better to negotiate or comply. This way both parties stay happy.


     


    Kids pick up on all sorts of cues; I don't have to scream at them for them to realize I'm upset about something they've done. They've proven surprisingly perceptive, and more often than not, they'll apologize and even help me clean things up. It's important for me to avoid force or coercion in disciplinary acts, but I am a human being and, sure, things that my kids do sometimes make me super angry haha. Another thing you have to keep in mind is that, while kids do make messes and test boundaries and whatnot, it's all a part of their development. Those messes or tantrums or whatever are teaching them something about a world they don't know a whole lot about. Your reactions to these things will be equally instructive, and are going to inform their reactions and attitudes going forward.


     


    Basically, I don't punish my kids. I don't take away their things or treat them like my property. They're autonomous human beings living under my roof, and I treat them as such. I try and guide them, try to model good behaviors and do my best not to get too mad when they fuck things up haha. Things seem to be working well so far. My 3 year old is beginning to negotiate with me, and his tantrums have almost ceased at this point. The 2 year old is beginning to model his brother's behaviors, and while he can still be pretty rowdy at times, his overall temperament has improved.


     


    Most people approach parenting as a means of inculcating obedience. IMO, that's completely wrong. Obedience is an admirable trait to cultivate in dogs, but I detest almost nothing more in human beings than blind obedience, or obedience as a result of fear. I want to raise kids who are empathetic, and who live thoughtfully-- understanding that their words and actions have the power to strengthen or diminish interpersonal relationships. If a kid grows up not making messes or breaking house rules for fear of punishment, then that's a shame, I think. I'd rather my kids grow up not doing those things because they understand WHY they're a bad idea in the first place.


     


    Sorry, I tried to condense this, but I ended up rambling a little. Lol




     


    That's fascinating, thanks for sharing!


     


    I hope to raise kids this way one day -- would you mind sharing how you developed this philosophy and where you've seen it?


  • SkeletorSkeletor The Conqueror Worm ✭✭✭
    edited October 2014


    That's fascinating, thanks for sharing!


     


    I hope to raise kids this way one day -- would you mind sharing how you developed this philosophy and where you've seen it?




     


    I can't take credit for this philosophy. Until relatively recent times, I subscribed to the "spanking builds character/is necessary" philosophy. My acceptance of these ideas was relatively gradual. Over the past 2 or so years, my ideas on government and morality tended towards Voluntaryism. The extension of these same values in the interest of moral consistency led me to embrace the peaceful parenting advice of Stefan Molyneux, a popular Youtube philosopher.


     


    I can't honestly recommend everything of Stefan's. In recent times he's produced what I would call misogynistic and sensationalistic content. Nevertheless, his work on peaceful parenting is fairly solid, and I'd recommend watching/listening to a few of his presentations on it.


     


    This is a good primer. There's an abundance of spanking-related content available on his channel if you're interested in diving deeper.



    "I know how to despise mere cool intelligence. What I want is intelligence matched by pure, physical existence, like a statue." --Yukio Mishima

     

    Let's be friends on MyFitnessPal!

  • StevoStevo Upgrade in Progress

    I have also discovered Stefan and listening to some of his logic has opened my mind a lot!


     


    Even since starting this thread I have thought a lot about the non-aggression principle and cannot logically comprehend how it is not OK to deal with others with hitting them yet for some reason the rule changes when its my own kid. Spanking = hitting, let's call it what it is. 


     


    Even time outs are the same as putting the child "in prison for a crime." Fortunately the occasions have not arisen for us to do this again.


  • My thoughts are, what is the real world like? For instance, at a job, if you do not do your job, you get warned, written up, fired, etc. Obviously the family is a different thing than the workplace, but if we are preparing these little humans to become adults, how do we best prepare them for the real world?

    I do not have all the answers. Just the questions I ask myself constantly as I try to figure out how to best navigate raising a 10, 8, 6, and 2 year old. :smile:


  • Here's an example:

    Me: Can you take your shoes off inside please?

    Her: No!

    Me: Can you do good listening? I want you to take your shoes off inside because you are getting the carpet dirty."

    Her: No!

    Me: I really want you to take your shoes off but you are not listening to me. So you can sit in the naughty corner for 3 minutes until I come and get you.


    Then each time she tries to flee the corner, she goes back and the 3 minutes starts again.




     


    Ever thought about having her run the vacuum to clean up? It is completely within a young child's ability, the novelty will wear off soon, and it gives them volition. She can run around with shoes on, but then she has to clean up her mess.

  • Some of the other things to consider is preparation is the key to success. You explain when you're almost home that before you go inside everyone needs to take their shoes off, then when you're almost at the front door you remind them again, and then you offer to help them take their shoes off.


     


    It's like if you're at the park and you need to leave, the kid is playing and having a good time and the parent walks up when the king just got into the top of his castle. "Ok, it's time to go now". The shock, the horror, the king has been dethroned without notice, and the fight ensues.


     


    Or you tell your kid, "OK, at 1 o'clock in an hour we will have to leave". "In 30 minutes we have to leave". "Okay, you have 10 more minutes to play then we need to leave", "Alright, 5 minutes left, start getting ready to go". Then you tell them it's time to leave.


     


    Of course some self-righteous parents will say they shouldn’t have to do that, their word is the “law”, they would much prefer dealing with a kicking and screaming kid, or just hitting them to make them comply. Also, why wouldn’t you want to be empathetic, if you can help avoid disappointment and tears, isn’t it a simple thing to do?


     


    What if you could spend 10 or 15 minutes explaining how something works, why not to do something or why it should be done, before you’re in the moment of doing it, and then after that all they would need is simple reminders, isn’t that a lot easier than years of time outs, hitting or other forms of punishment, which have been shown to simply not work. If they did, parents wouldn’t need to continually punish.




  • My thoughts are, what is the real world like? For instance, at a job, if you do not do your job, you get warned, written up, fired, etc. Obviously the family is a different thing than the workplace, but if we are preparing these little humans to become adults, how do we best prepare them for the real world?


    I do not have all the answers. Just the questions I ask myself constantly as I try to figure out how to best navigate raising a 10, 8, 6, and 2 year old. :smile:




     


     


    Well that is an interesting point, and in the real world jobs are negiotated for, and if you are unable to perform the tasks your work needs you have a chance to fulfill them, they let you know in writing if you are continually unable to do what they need, and if you just can't do it, they end the relationship.


     


    An employer is not responsible for making someone fulfill their promises, they are not raising an immature mind, if you do not know how to behave properly by the time you have a job then perhaps your parents are to blame.


     


    An employer can also choose to end a relationship, as can the employee of free will. The child has no ability to choose the relationship, or end it. If you're a bad parent they definitely can end it later though, and many do. The child has no choice, including the choice of being here or not. Where do parents get off thinking the child owes them some debt of graditude for choosing to have the child, the child had no choice in being here or not.


     


    So to best prepare them for the real world, you teach them how to negiotate, by negiotating with them. Do you want a raise at work? You go to your manager and explain how you are worth more money, you negiotate for more. You want a promotion? You explain your skills, why you would do a good job, then you negiotate for it. I can't think of an instance where someone could say, "I really need more money, if I don't get it by the time I count to ten I'm going to ground you". Or even worse "hit (spank) you". Interestingly enough society calls that assault, and you would be charged and possibly imprisoned if you did that to an adult. Society accepts us doing that to tiny humans 1/10th our size.


     


    Something else to consider, some time not very long ago, society completely accepted it was okay to "hit your woman" to "keep them in line". That norm has quickly changed, men and women would both agree that is wrong. Unfortunately society is still very accepting of women hitting; hitting the man is "funny", as portrayed on TV or in the movies, and hitting kids is perfectly okay, which is primarily done by women - though men are aggressors in the act as well. I would theorize if all women said hitting kids was wrong, and they would not do it, almost all men would cease the act as well. Those that didn't would quickly find themself without mates, and the inability to procreate, so sooner rather than later it would stop happening.

  • StevoStevo Upgrade in Progress
    I had a revelation the other day when I used the analogy that I don't make absolute demands with my wife like "we are going to this restaurant!" so why does it make sense with a kid?


    The answer is, it doesn't. Just like hitting, you don't deal with anyone else by making big demands, so it's not the way to deal with a child. Negotiating is definitely the key.
Sign In or Register to comment.