Benfotiamine &/or Cocarboxylase (Thiamine Pyrophosphate, Tpp)

dazdaz today is a good day ✭✭✭
edited July 2016 in General Discussion

Anyone supplemented with Benfotiamine or Cocarboxylase (aka Thiamine Pyrophosphate, TPP).

Why did you take...

Did you notice it helping/working...


Just interested, after reading about these two supplements recently.


for those who have never heard of these, their descriptions taken from wiki;

- Benfotiamine (rINN, or S-benzoylthiamine O-monophosphate) is a synthetic S-acyl derivative of thiamine (vitamin B1).

- Thiamine pyrophosphate (TPP or ThPP), or thiamine diphosphate (ThDP), or cocarboxylase is a thiamine (vitamin B1) derivative which is produced by the enzyme thiamine diphosphokinase.


fake it till you make it

Comments

  • mistamista
    edited July 2016

    I've been looking at anti-glycation supplements, where benfotiamine seems to come highly recommended.  The half life seems pretty large (several days?)


     


    I've read that ketosis increases methylgloxal production -- which benfotiamine seems to protect particularly well against.  It also seems to promote glucose uptake / glucose oxidation in muscle tissue and the brain, while decreasing inflammation and protecting nerve cells and endothelial tissue.


     


    It sounds like pretty good stuff -- useful for both higher-carb meals and higher-fat meals, protecting both cognitive and cardiovascular function... other than potential carcinogenic risks?


  • dazdaz today is a good day ✭✭✭
    edited July 2016
    I do not recall reading of any carcinogenic risks for either of these. or for thiamine (Vitamin B1) itself...

    fake it till you make it



  • I do not recall reading of any carcinogenic risks for either of these. or for thiamine (Vitamin B1) itself...




     


    Here's some of the stuff I had read about it:


     





     

    "Metabolic studies have provided strong evidence that cancer cells exploit thiamine-dependent enzymes and pathways for anabolic, proliferative, and survival purposes.

     

    Rather than somehow preferring to use the very inefficient lactic acid pathway as their route to generate ATP instead of OXPHOS, these cancers are instead stuck using it, because of what they really need: they are trading off the wasted energetic potential of glucose, in favor of feeding glucose carbon into the pentose phosphate pathway to maximize nucleic acid ribose synthesis, and thereby maintain the massive production of proteins, DNA, and 'novel fatty acids' that they need to maintain their runaway proliferation.  Of course, activation of the pentose phosphate shunt is exactly the route by which benfotiamine reduces the formation of intracellular oxoaldehydes.

     

    Cancer cells utilize glucose maximally as a main source of energy supply and substrates for proliferation through glycolytic metabolic pathways.  Cancer cells favor the TK pathway because it produces ribose molecules faster than the oxidative pathway -- and ribose molecules are in constant demand by rapidly dividing cancer cells for the production of new DNA and RNA. 

     

    'When it comes to tumor-cell growth, virus infections, and other conditions that require rapid DNA/RNA synthesis, cells will use the transketolase pathway.'"

     

    Rather than inhibiting transketolase, which would starve a cancer cell of glucose, benfotiamine increases the expression and enhances insulin synthesis to deliver more glucose to these cells, promoting growth.

     

    "While you clearly don't want to go around frankly thiamine deficient in order to avoid cancer, having a chronic oversupply of bioactive thiamine (from benfotiamine, or any other source) likely creates a permissive environment for these cancers."

     

    I'm not quite sure how legitimate these concerns might be.  I've seen dosages for benfotiamine at 50mg up to 6x higher, 300mg dosages
  • dazdaz today is a good day ✭✭✭
    edited July 2016
    perhaps a Cocarboxylase supplement would be safer, seems to have been around longer than Benfotiamine supplements.

    (& does not get the label of synthetic, idk if that makes any difference, in this case).


    Source Naturals does a 25 mg Cocarboxylase sublingual (equiv 16 mg Thiamine).

    & that dose seems more sensible(?) than the 150 mg & 300 mg doses you see in the benfotiamine... ?

    ( although it is a sublingual, so a higher % may hit the blood vs a normal tablet/capsule ? ).

    fake it till you make it

  • mistamista
    edited July 2016


    perhaps a Cocarboxylase supplement would be safer, seems to have been around longer than Benfotiamine supplements.

    (& does not get the label of synthetic, idk if that makes any difference, in this case).


    Source Naturals does a 25 mg Cocarboxylase sublingual (equiv 16 mg Thiamine).

    & that dose seems fair more sensible(?) than the 150 mg & 300 mg doses you see in the benfotiamine... ?

    ( although it is a sublingual, so a higher % may hit the blood vs a normal tablet/capsule ? ).




    Benfotiamine is natural as well (found in allium vegetables.)


     


    I'm still not sure whether to view the transketolase activation as a feature (reducing AGEs) or a flaw (providing cancerous / pre-cancerous cells with more fuel.)  Swanson also offers an "Activated B Vitamin" complex for $10 bucks with 25mg benfotiamine, which actually looks pretty legit now that I'm reading through it.


     


    Doctor's Best has a good write-up on Benfotiamine:


    https://www.drbvitamins.com/docs/pub/Benfotiamine_Family_FS.pdf


     


    These are a couple interesting new articles:


    Benfotiamine upregulates antioxidative system in activated BV-2 microglia cells:


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmid/26388737/


     


    Benfotiamine Attenuates Inflammatory Response in LPS Stimulated BV-2 Microglia:


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmid/25695433/


     


    Increased SOD2 expression and ATP levels imply that benfotiamine promotes mitochondrial activity/number.  In addition, benfotiamine upregulated glutathione system. The total glutathione was increased 2- to 3-fold in activated microglia exposed to benfotiamine.  Also, its beneficial effect was shown in the animal model of Alzheimer’s disease. Benfotiamine significantly reduced the formation of amyloid plaques in APP/PS1 mice.  Benfotiamine inhibits translocation of NF-κB/p65 into the nucleus and consequently alleviate the transcription of proinflammatory genes.


     


    It sounds like transketolase is activated simply through B1 supplementation, where Benfotiamine is just a particularly good source of B1, promoting high tissue levels of TPP (Cocarboxylase).  I'm not sure if a sublingual Cocarboxylase supplement wouldn't do the same thing.  Trials have used 400-600mg/d ranges, which seems pretty damn high to me for a fat-soluble vitamin... apparently the higher doses showed the greatest benefit.


     


    There's also Allithiamine (TAD), and Sulbutiamine.


  • dazdaz today is a good day ✭✭✭
    edited August 2016


    I've been looking at anti-glycation supplements, where benfotiamine seems to come highly recommended.  


    The half life seems pretty large (several days?) 




     


    if the half life is days, perhaps just take 150 mg two or three times a week, to mitigate any potential long term issues with high (150+ mg) daily doses of benfotiamine...


     


    you could also half a tablet or capsule, to reduce the one off dosage, if you could be bothered


    fake it till you make it

  • I have been taking 300 mg Benfotiamine daily, and did a lab test for intracellular Vitamin B1 in red blood cells (IMD Berlin):

    Intracellular (RBC) Vitamin B1: 234 µg/l (reference range 62 - 152, median 113).

    No I am not sure if having twice as much thiamine in my cells as most people is a good thing.

  • dazdaz today is a good day ✭✭✭

    @Omega Terus
    why were you taking...
    did it help...

    fake it till you make it

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