B-12 And Folinic Acid

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  • This is my first post here so take it for what it's worth. But in my opinion if you are thinking about taking these then you should have a genetic methylation analysis. The cheapest way is to use date from 23andme (costs $100) and then put it into genegenie (costs $10). It will show all your methyl cycle mutations. If you do not have an MTHFR mutation you probably don't need methylfolate. If you have mutations in other genes that increase methylation (COMT, CBR, etc.) then you may not do well with methylated versions of the vitamins. and should take other tyepes of B12 (hydroxycobabamin or adenosylcobalamin). The easiest chart to find out is here : http://www.scribd.com/doc/132017201/Dr-Amy-s-Simplified-Road-Map-to-Health#scribd on page 10. I don't really know much about Dr. Yasko but many people in the MTHFR community seem to find her information helpful.


     


    If you don't have any of these mutations you probably don't need to supplement these at all if you eat a healthy diet. It's worth the cost of analysis to save you from wasting money on useless supplements you don't need in my opinion.




     


    Right. -- This was my concern exactly.


     


    I'm still dragging my feet on getting 23andMe done as I'm pretty hardcore bulletproof and have seen others regard it as kind of useless unless you have some issue. -- But I guess you don't know until you get tested!



  • Right. -- This was my concern exactly.


     


    I'm still dragging my feet on getting 23andMe done as I'm pretty hardcore bulletproof and have seen others regard it as kind of useless unless you have some issue. -- But I guess you don't know until you get tested!




     


     


    Just my opinion but...even if it shows you are completely normal with no methyl cycle mutations it will save you money in the long term by allowing you not to waste money on supplements you don't need or may make you feel worse.  I feel much beeter supplementing based on this information than I ever did supplementing willy-nilly with whatever people say is the "new awesome thing."


     


    For instance my results showed that NAC and glutathione were basically a waste and cause me too many side effects and I am better off with hydroxyB12 than methylB12 which basically paid for the test alone. As well as tons of other stuff which I won't go into .   I generally think testing yourself for things is good as long as the tests are affordable. Allergy tests can also save you some money on food products. Some tests are just too expensive stll though for the info they give. However, 23andme plus gene genie and promethease is pretty damn cheap considering.


     

    Do not take anything I say here as medical advice.



  • Just my opinion but...even if it shows you are completely normal with no methyl cycle mutations it will save you money in the long term by allowing you not to waste money on supplements you don't need or may make you feel worse.  I feel much beeter supplementing based on this information than I ever did supplementing willy-nilly with whatever people say is the "new awesome thing."


     


    For instance my results showed that NAC and glutathione were basically a waste and cause me too many side effects and I am better off with hydroxyB12 than methylB12 which basically paid for the test alone. As well as tons of other stuff which I won't go into .   I generally think testing yourself for things is good as long as the tests are affordable. Allergy tests can also save you some money on food products. Some tests are just too expensive stll though for the info they give. However, 23andme plus gene genie and promethease is pretty damn cheap considering.




     


    Good points. -- But is 23andME conclusive for things like supplements without support of miconutrient testing? -- Meaning, ok great it might say your body isn't capable of doing X or Y, but without contextualizing it and supporting with additional labs.. how could you every truly corroborate any of that?

  • Yeah. I completely agree...23andme is not conclusive  without a bunch of additional tests. If you have the money for those then great...if not 23andme is better than nothing.  But really you are comparing a $100 test versus multiple tests that will cost much, much more (more tests of course = more info gained). I think it's probably better for showing you what you don't have/ don't need. If you don't have an MTHFR mutation you almost certainly don't need 5-methylfolate for instance.  Even if you do have the gene you may still not need it depending on other your adaptations your body has made or other genes you have.


     


    Another thing worth mentioning is that even if you have the genes then environment play a huge role. Some people have stated they have bad reactions when starting these vitamins due to "detoxing". Also if you have recently been exposed to mercury for some reason you may want to avoid methyl donors (especially methyl b-12)that some say can turn it into methyl-mercury (one of the worse forms).  Some people (but not all) have reported bad reactions with methyldonors when they have mercury amalgams. However all of this is purely based on ANECDOTAL reports and there is no hard and fast science to back 99% of supplements at all regardless of what tests you have. If there was then someone would be prescribing it.


     


    If you really want to go the route of forgoing 23andme you could just buy 5methylfolate and  hydroxycobalaminand you'd probably be safe but that would cost almost as much as the test at 23andme.  Hydorxycobalamin is safe for almost everyone but very expensive vs. methylb12 and not as effective for many people either.



     

    Do not take anything I say here as medical advice.



  • Yeah. I completely agree...23andme is not conclusive  without a bunch of additional tests. If you have the money for those then great...if not 23andme is better than nothing.  But really you are comparing a $100 test versus multiple tests that will cost much, much more (more tests of course = more info gained). I think it's probably better for showing you what you don't have/ don't need. If you don't have an MTHFR mutation you almost certainly don't need 5-methylfolate for instance.  Even if you do have the gene you may still not need it depending on other your adaptations your body has made or other genes you have.


     


    Another thing worth mentioning is that even if you have the genes then environment play a huge role. Some people have stated they have bad reactions when starting these vitamins due to "detoxing". Also if you have recently been exposed to mercury for some reason you may want to avoid methyl donors (especially methyl b-12)that some say can turn it into methyl-mercury (one of the worse forms).  Some people (but not all) have reported bad reactions with methyldonors when they have mercury amalgams. However all of this is purely based on ANECDOTAL reports and there is no hard and fast science to back 99% of supplements at all regardless of what tests you have. If there was then someone would be prescribing it.


     


    If you really want to go the route of forgoing 23andme you could just buy 5methylfolate and  hydroxycobalaminand you'd probably be safe but that would cost almost as much as the test at 23andme.  Hydorxycobalamin is safe for almost everyone but very expensive vs. methylb12 and not as effective for many people either.




     


     


    Right, more of a process of elimination versus going the other more costly route. Makes sense.


     


    I'm definitely going to get the 23andMe testing done.. have you had it done? Any personal takeaways worth mentioning? 

  • edited March 2015

    Oh yes. I've had it done. The main point I make about the site it the info it gives without other programs is not very useful (especially now with most of the health data removed). HOWEVER,  you can dowload the raw data from the site and put it through Promethease, gene genie, or another site it becomes a pretty useful tool.  Those services are cheap/free/donation. Promethease ( https://promethease.com/ondemandagreed) is the best but it can overload you with too much data. But it will give you all the data that they took off 23andme plus a ton more  Gene genie ( http://geneticgenie.org/) shows all the methyl cycle stuff ( http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm). That is probably the most immediately useful stuff.


     


    Other genes MAY help tweak diet and exercise routine: http://rockstarresearch.com/these-5-genes-predict-what-kind-of-diet-and-exercise-is-best-for-your-body-2/


     


    APOE variant may also help (although data on APOE 4 is very conflicting on it's role in diet):


    http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread47066.html


    http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/APOE


    http://people.csail.mit.edu/seneff/alzheimers_statins.html


    http://www.gbhealthwatch.com/GND-High-Cholesterol-APOE.php



     

    Do not take anything I say here as medical advice.



  • I recently found out I had several MTHFR/MTRR gene mutations so I need to make sure I take the "end product" which is 5-MTHF, the active form of folate that the body uses. Here's a good article if you have genetic testing done: http://mthfr.net/mthfr-c677t-mutation-basic-protocol/2012/02/24/ I would recommend Thorne and Metabolic Maintenance as reputable pharma companies for that supplement.


     


    For everyone else I really suggest you check up on this before jumping into folate supplements. As I understand, there is no reason not to take 5-MTHF instead of folinic acid, especially if you don't know whether you have a heterozygous or homozygous mutation of the MTHFR gene.




     


    I could not agree with this MORE!   The MTHFR mutation is in a lot of the population.  Dave has it!  Check out the site Redwood listed and even Dave's podcast with Dr Lynch.  

  • The only reason I can think of not to is the added cost if you don't have any mutation...well actually I heard from some people that if they don't know how their methyl cycle is functioning and if they don't have enough of the correct B12 (which differs depending on the person)  then there is a risk of a bad reaction called "methyl trapping" where the 5-MF does not all get used properly. Also some beople say if you don't correct CBS mutations first you can get a build up of ammonia and sulfer or a "detox reaction."  This is from the phoenix rising and heartfixer sites.



     

    Do not take anything I say here as medical advice.

  • I am from Spain and It is difficult for me to take tested because the only test I know is the 23and Me which it can be sent to my country but then once I test myself I have to send it back to the US and because it is a saliva test I can have some troubles with the borders. Also doing so becomes price.

    As I want to get pregnant I was told I needed Folinic and B12, what would you recommend? Is there any brand it could be better?


  • Oh yes. I've had it done. The main point I make about the site it the info it gives without other programs is not very useful (especially now with most of the health data removed). HOWEVER,  you can dowload the raw data from the site and put it through Promethease, gene genie, or another site it becomes a pretty useful tool.  Those services are cheap/free/donation. Promethease ( https://promethease.com/ondemandagreed) is the best but it can overload you with too much data. But it will give you all the data that they took off 23andme plus a ton more  Gene genie ( http://geneticgenie.org/) shows all the methyl cycle stuff ( http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm). That is probably the most immediately useful stuff.


     


    Other genes MAY help tweak diet and exercise routine: http://rockstarresearch.com/these-5-genes-predict-what-kind-of-diet-and-exercise-is-best-for-your-body-2/


     


    APOE variant may also help (although data on APOE 4 is very conflicting on it's role in diet):


    http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread47066.html


    http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/APOE


    http://people.csail.mit.edu/seneff/alzheimers_statins.html


    http://www.gbhealthwatch.com/GND-High-Cholesterol-APOE.php




     


    Does Promethease provide methylation insights? -- Meaning does it touch on everything Gene Genie would?



  • Does Promethease provide methylation insights? -- Meaning does it touch on everything Gene Genie would?




     


    Yes there is a category called Yasko Methylation last time I checked. However, gene genie is free and promethease is $5.


     

    Do not take anything I say here as medical advice.



  • I am from Spain and It is difficult for me to take tested because the only test I know is the 23and Me which it can be sent to my country but then once I test myself I have to send it back to the US and because it is a saliva test I can have some troubles with the borders. Also doing so becomes price.

    As I want to get pregnant I was told I needed Folinic and B12, what would you recommend? Is there any brand it could be better?




     


     


    23andme is fine for genetic testing privded you use the resources I mentioned above.


     


    5-methylfolate is a good form for pregnancy


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23482308


     


    I use seekinghealth brand B vitamins. But that is just my presonal choice. I'm sure some other brands are just as good.


     

    Do not take anything I say here as medical advice.

  • I started a B12 protocol, initially every day, then QOD, and have gone to a maintenance where I take a B12 shot biweekly.


     


     


     


    Background: generally obese family, lifelong weight struggle. Some success on WW as a teen, then Atkins once as a 30 yr old adult.  Chronic stress and Gluten Intolerance have been my downfall, along with more than a dozen pregnancies-- the chronic stress comes AFTER the pregnancies! I can water fast for more than a month at a time and lose less than 12# which is mainly waterweight (have done it annually for more than a decade as a detox). My body is THE ultimate survivor. After an unremarkable two months on a strict Bulletproof Diet, it has FINALLY just succumbed!!!! Out of nowhere I have lost 20# in two weeks. I will check in every 20# until I reach my goal.


     


     


  • hey folks - I also ordered the Kirkman Folinic Acid with B-12 supplement. (Here


     


    the bottle says it has 6MCG of Vitamin B-12 (methylcobalamin) and 400 MCG of Folinic Acid. 


     


    Dave's recommendation is quoted here: 


     


    Dose: >5mg of methylcobalamin or hydroxycobalamin and >800mcg of folate (5-MTHF or folinic acid, NOT folic acid)


     


    Was that a typo on Dave's blog? Did he mean more that MCG rather than MG for the Methylcobalamin?


     


    Btw, he also notes in his blog post that a misuse of these two ingredients can cause permanent brain damage (!!!)   So it seems rather important to get this right. :)


     


    Tom


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