Eeg Questions

I just ordered an nIR HEG system with Bioexplorer software (was hoping for delivery before Chinese New Year holidays shut everything down, but it's not likely to happen) to play around with and work on my attention problems, and see what other funtions of the PFC I can enhance.

Sooner or later I intend to get an EEG unit as well, but given the costs involved and the huge array of devices to choose from, I'm extremely reluctant to make a hasty choice. From what I've gathered from reading around online, I've more or less settled on a 4-channel system, as everything else that I've found so far seems priced out of reach. Just atm I've been eying the Neurobit Optima4, but I really don't feel confident that I know what I ought to in order to make a solid choice.



I know there are at least a couple of BP members with EEG experience, so I'm putting out this handful of questions hoping one or more of you can guide me in the right direction: What specs are most important when shopping for a unit? What are some good books on the subject of neurofeedback that would be useful for DIY at-home use (I'm aware of Symphony in the Brain and have it on the order list already)? What are some good sites offering DIY training? Newbie-friendly sites/forums for EEG discussion and training? Is there any site out there offering comparisons and reviews of home EEG units (web searching has so far turned up very little for me on this question so far, mostly I get manufacturer websites only talking about their own products, and little or nothing reviewing and comparing competing products)? Is there a "best" 4-channel (or more) EEG in the $1000-2000 range (openEEG is out for the time being--I don't have the time to learn everything I need to build my own atm)?



Or really just any info that you feel is crucial to a beginner in neurofeedback with EEG. Even just a link to a good reputable website would be awesome (all I know atm is brain-trainer.com). Having looked through the book reviews at Amazon on the subject, I get the feeling that there's an awful lot of snake oil out there...



Thanks

Comments

  • Probably the best cost-effective, actually usable-for-training setup out there is something from PocketNeurobics.com and either BioExplorer or BioEra for software (both available through PN as well, in "kits").  PN has 2 and more channel EEG amps, is the best deal running in cost.  You need a windows machine, too, and ideally one with a dedicated video card.

  • In terms of learning.. ?    EEG is tricky, but not impossible, and neurofeedback adds some complexity (knowing "what" to train, mostly).  I'll send you the tentative reading list for the UCLA Extension course on Biofeedback and Neurofeedback I'm going to teach in the fall, if you want..


  • hzahza ✭✭

    Actually I pre-ordered the new Pocket Neurobics 4-channel amp, the "Q-WIZ" as soon as they started taking orders a month or two ago.  It's supposed to be delivered sometime in the next week or so.  I already have BioExplorer, and a starter kit with all the cables, connectors, gel, and at some point soon, an electro-cap.  Basically it's all taken care of, I'm just waiting on order fulfillment at this stage.


     


    I would be thrilled to have a reading list for NFB.  I've been poring over the titles at Amazon, and it's very difficult to settle on an introductory text, not least of which because few of them appear to have been written in the last ten years.  Also, they're not cheap, so buying the wrong one would be an expensive mistake (I'm in Taiwan so the library option is out).  


     


    Yes, EEG is tricky, but I'm sure I can learn it as long as I don't lose patience (and I've been training with HEG since April, so hopefully my capacity for frustration has improved).  Probably the biggest obstacle I face is not having a partner to train with.  It's going to be tough getting a baseline reading on myself when I'm the one administering it.  I assume there's a way to do it, but I hear it's highly recommended against.


     


    Thanks for answering.  I thought this thread was dead a long time ago.




  • In terms of learning.. ?    EEG is tricky, but not impossible, and neurofeedback adds some complexity (knowing "what" to train, mostly).  I'll send you the tentative reading list for the UCLA Extension course on Biofeedback and Neurofeedback I'm going to teach in the fall, if you want..




     


    What are the prerequisites?  Any chance that you could put a webcam in the room?

  • edited June 2013


    What are the prerequisites?  Any chance that you could put a webcam in the room?




     


    ==


     


     


    No pre-requisites, but sorry Jason, no webcam either - although UCLA Extension will let me offer some of these courses online after the first one goes well, probably.


     


    I'll look over the reading list in the next few days and suggest the "most" important starting place for you, hza.


  • hzahza ✭✭

    Thanks Salamandyr, I really appreciate it.  I've got a pretty decent math and science background, so I'm not afraid of technical language or getting into the weeds, but it's important that I have at least one text that starts out from the very beginning.   


     


    Here are two books I was planning to buy.  Maybe you could tell me if they're suitable, and if so, which is better:


     


    Richard Souter, Doing Neurofeedback--An Introduction (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0984608540/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER)


     


    A. James Rowan, Primer of EEG:  With a Mini-Atlas (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0750674768/ref=ox_sc_act_title_5?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER)


     


    And of course I'm looking forward to seeing your recommendations.  Thanks again.

  • Soutar's book is pretty good.  Start there.  :)  I'd go for a copy of Neidermeyer's EEG vs Rowan, if you really want to get "deep".  Spendy, but there are electronic copies and previous editions for sale for cheap, often.


  • I'll probably revise it by then, but this is a draft of the reading list for my fall class:


     


    Required Reading (Articles):


     


    Arns M, Drinkenburg W, Leon Kenemans J. (2012). The effects of QEEG-informed neurofeedback in ADHD: an open-label pilot study. Appl Psychophysiol Biofeedback. 37(3):171-80. doi: 10.1007/s10484-012-9191-4.


     


    Arns M, Kenemans JL. (2012). Neurofeedback in ADHD and insomnia: Vigilance stabilization through sleep spindles and circadian networks. Neurosci Biobehav Rev. doi: 10.1016/j.neubiorev.2012.10.006.


     


    Barnea A, Rassis A, Zaidel E. (2005). Effect of neurofeedback on hemispheric word recognition. Brain Cogn. 59(3):314-21.


     


    Beauregard M, Lévesque J. (2006). Functional magnetic resonance imaging investigation of the effects of neurofeedback training on the neural bases of selective attention and response inhibition in children with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder. Appl Psychophysiol Biofeedback. 31(1):3-20.


     


    Choi, S. W., Chi, S. E., Chung, S. Y., Kim, J. W., Ahn, C. Y., & Kim, H. T. (2011). Is alpha wave neurofeedback effective with randomized clinical trials in depression? A pilot study. Neuropsychobiology, Neuropsychobiology, 63(1), 43-51. doi:10.1159/000322290


     


    de Zambotti M, Bianchin M, Magazzini L, Gnesato G, Angrilli A. (2012). The efficacy of EEG neurofeedback aimed at enhancing sensory-motor rhythm theta ratio in healthy subjects. Exp Brain Res. 221(1):69-74. doi: 10.1007/s00221-012-3148-y.


     


    Gruzelier J, Egner T, Vernon D.(2006). Validating the efficacy of neurofeedback for optimising performance. Prog Brain Res. 159:421-31.


     


    Egner T, Gruzelier JH. (2004). EEG biofeedback of low beta band components: frequency-specific effects on variables of attention and event-related brain potentials. Clin Neurophysiol. 115(1):131-9.


     


    Gevensleben, H., Rothenberger, A., Moll, G. H., & Heinrich, H. (2012). Neurofeedback in children with ADHD: validation and challenges. Expert Rev Neurother, Expert Rev Neurother, 12(4), 447-60. doi:10.1586/ern.12.22


     


    Gevirtz, R. N. (2003). The promise of HRV biofeedback: Some preliminary results and speculations. Biofeedback,31(3), 18-19.


     


    Gilbert, C. (2005). Better chemistry through breathing: The story of carbon dioxide and how it can go wrong. Biofeedback,33(3), 100-104.


     


    Gruzelier JH. (2013). Differential effects on mood of 12-15 (SMR) and 15-18 (beta1) Hz neurofeedback. Int J Psychophysiol. doi: 10.1016/j.ijpsycho.2012.11.007.


     


    Hirshberg LM, Chiu S, Frazier JA. (2005). Emerging brain-based interventions for children and adolescents: overview and clinical perspective. Child Adolesc Psychiatr Clin N Am. 14(1):1-19, v.


     


    Holtmann M, Steiner S, Hohmann S, Poustka L, Banaschewski T, Bölte S. (2011). Neurofeedback in autism spectrum disorders. Dev Med Child Neurol. 53(11):986-93. doi: 10.1111/j.1469-8749.2011.04043.x.


     


    Lansbergen, M. M., van Dongen-Boomsma, M., Buitelaar, J. K., & Slaats-Willemse, D. (2011). ADHD and EEG-neurofeedback: a double-blind randomized placebo-controlled feasibility study. J Neural Transm, J Neural Transm, 118(2), 275-84. doi:10.1007/s00702-010-0524-2


     


    LaVaque, T. J., Hammond, D. C., Trudeau, D., Monastra, V., Perry, J., Lehrer, P., Matheson, D., & Sherman, R. (2002, December). Template for developing guidelines for the evaluation of the clinical efficacy of psychophysiological evaluations. Applied Psychophysiology and Biofeedback,27(4), 273-281.


     


    Linden, D. E. J., Habes, I., Johnston, S. J., Linden, S., Tatineni, R., Subramanian, L., Sorger, B., et al. (2012). Real-time self-regulation of emotion networks in patients with depression. PLoS One, PLoS One, 7(6), e38115. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0038115


     


    Loo, S. K., & Makeig, S. (2012). Clinical utility of EEG in attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder: a research update. Neurotherapeutics, Neurotherapeutics, 9(3), 569-87. doi:10.1007/s13311-012-0131-z


     


    Monastra VJ, Lynn S, Linden M, Lubar JF, Gruzelier J, LaVaque TJ. (2005). Electroencephalographic biofeedback in the treatment of attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder. Appl Psychophysiol Biofeedback. 30(2):95-114.


     


    Moss, D. (2004). Heart rate variability (HRV) biofeedback. Psychophysiology Today,1, 4-11.


     


    Ros T, Moseley MJ, Bloom PA, Benjamin L, Parkinson LA, Gruzelier JH. (2009). Optimizing microsurgical skills with EEG neurofeedback. BMC Neurosci. 10:87. doi: 10.1186/1471-2202-10-87.


     


    Ros, T., Munneke, M. A. M., Ruge, D., Gruzelier, J. H., & Rothwell, J. C. (2010). Endogenous control of waking brain rhythms induces neuroplasticity in humans. The European journal of neuroscience, The European journal of neuroscience, 31(4), 770-8. doi:10.1111/j.1460-9568.2010.07100.x


     


    Sterman MB, Egner T.(2006). Foundation and practice of neurofeedback for the treatment of epilepsy. Appl Psychophysiol Biofeedback. 31(1):21-35.


     


    Sterman MB.(2010). Biofeedback in the treatment of epilepsy. Cleve Clin J Med. 2010 Jul;77 Suppl 3:S60-7. doi: 10.3949/ccjm.77.s3.11.


     


    Thompson L, Thompson M, Reid A.(2010). Neurofeedback outcomes in clients with Asperger's syndrome. Appl Psychophysiol Biofeedback. 35(1):63-81. doi: 10.1007/s10484-009-9120-3.


     


    Vernon D, Egner T, Cooper N, Compton T, Neilands C, Sheri A, Gruzelier J. (2003). The effect of training distinct neurofeedback protocols on aspects of cognitive performance. Int J Psychophysiol. 47(1):75-85.


     


    Yucha, C., & Gilbert, C. (2004). Evidence-based practice in biofeedback and neurofeedback. Wheat Ridge, CO: AAPB.


     


     


     


    Optional (books):


    Coben (Editor) & Evans (Editor) (2010). Neurofeedback and Neuromodulation Techniques and Applications


     


    Demos, J. N. (2005). Getting started with neurofeedback. New York: W. W. Norton & Company.


     


    Kropotov (2008) Quantitative EEG, Event-Related Potentials and Neurotherapy.


     


    Schomer (Editor), Lopes da Silva (2010). Niedermeyer's Electroencephalography: Basic Principles, Clinical Applications, and Related Fields.


  • hzahza ✭✭

    Wow, that Niedermeyer book is "spendy," all right--even the used copies are about 400% of my budget.  Maybe I'll start with the Soutar book and save up for the big one.  


     


    Interesting reading list.  I assume the articles are all from academic and trade publications.  Are they available on the web somewhere?  If I had access to a university library, I imagine I could run them all down pretty quickly.


     


    I notice also that ADD/ADHD gets a lot of emphasis in this list.  I'm curious, do you use HEG in your practice, and between HEG and EEG, do you find one more effective that the other in treating ADD/ADHD?


     


    Thanks for the suggestions.


  • edited June 2013


    Wow, that Niedermeyer book is "spendy," all right--even the used copies are about 400% of my budget.  Maybe I'll start with the Soutar book and save up for the big one.  


     


    Interesting reading list.  I assume the articles are all from academic and trade publications.  Are they available on the web somewhere?  If I had access to a university library, I imagine I could run them all down pretty quickly.


     


    I notice also that ADD/ADHD gets a lot of emphasis in this list.  I'm curious, do you use HEG in your practice, and between HEG and EEG, do you find one more effective that the other in treating ADD/ADHD?


     


    Thanks for the suggestions.




     


    ====


     


    Yeah exec function / ADHD is a bit of a focus.. there is also a lot of research on the Alpha / Theta protocol, used for addiction (Peniston) as well as creativity, etc.   Papers are available at libraries usually, or by emailing the corresponding author directly (most are quite happy to share a fulltext copy).   ISNR.org members also get one of the main journals and access to the archive.


     


    Re HEG - yes, I do use HEG.  Mostly pirHEG, and I find it's rather a "silver bullet" for migraines.  I've also used it for frontal function (humor, flexibility) in ASD people.


     


    I think EEG is vastly more flexible and has better and more tweakable effects, but if you have an issue or a goal that HEG can address, it can do so quickly and with great results.  e.g. I use both with a client, when appropriate for their goals.


  • brainy10brainy10
    edited February 24

    This post is around 5 years old, but I still enjoyed reading it and all your comments.
    As a newbie would appreciate any update.
    @hza what did you get at the end and are you still using them to train your brain and perhaps others?

  • hi , I'm hoping I can get info on brain hacking for my son who is 22 and newly diagnosed Aug 2017 with bipolar 1 disorder. Has anyone heard of neurofeedback to be helpful, and who does it. I have researched Dr david Marquis in Arroyo Grande California. Looking for any posivite alternatives in addition to his medication. Thanks

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