Ketosis And Carb Depletion

Hello all, I'm a newb here and I have a couple of semi-basic questions. I need a refresher on the benefits of ketosis. I have read up on it, but my question is: does high amounts of good fats aid in getting into ketosis or does it help once you're in it?


 


Also, I have heard Dave mention the importance of having some good carbs a couple of times a week. How important is this? I'm trying to lose weight and I'm thinking that staying away from carbs as much as possible would be beneficial. Am I hurting  myself by not eating a little white rice a couple of times a week?


 


Lastly, how does longer intermittent fasting help? I stop eating at 7PM and I know that my 18 hours ends at 1 PM the next day, but is there extra-bulletproofness gained by holding off until say 3 or 4?


 


Thanks for all your bulletproof advice.


Comments

  • I would advise you to look into the material yourself: http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/cancer-treatments.htmlhttp://www.lucastafur.com/search/label/high%20proteinhttp://www.ketotic.org/http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/http://archaeonova.blogspot.com/2013/04/myths-of-paleo-part-one.htmlhttp://www.jackkruse.com/do-food-electrons-impart-a-quantum-effect/http://eatingacademy.com/


     


    Ketosis is a complex state but I'am of the opinion carb refeeds are not necessary, although they can work well. I myself have been doing weekly carb refeeds as per Carb Nite Solution/Carb Backloading to gain muscle, but theoretically it is entirely possible to gain muscle sans carbs and only use protein+fat. It may not be easy, but it is possible - as is highly intense physical performance as evidenced by Peter Attia, Barry Murphy, and Ben Greenfield (some others as well).


     


    Jason is correct in that fast as long/short as you need/want. BP-IF is just a template, as is the diet. There are many variations of IFing and fasting in general, there really isn't a right or wrong answer here. I don't think you are harming yourself with longer fasts as long as (1) stay hydrated - fasting uses up water quicker (2) consume electrolytes/sodium for the same reason as water (3) your don't have damaged/non-optimal adrenal, thyroid, or leptin functioning. I'd argue BP fasting is easier on the body than typical fasting due to the fact that you're consuming calories from healthy fats, so you aren't purely running on your own body fuel.


     


    To your first question, I'd say fat consumption aids in ketosis, I'll look for some cites but I'm pretty sure that people outweighed their carb consumption with even more fats before and still got up to 0.5mmol of ketones in their body (the minimum to be in a state of ketosis). MCTs are especially helpful, although I don't believe they help become fat adapted, they simply give you the benefits of ketosis without being truly in ketosis - and if you are in ketosis then it is merely steeper. 


    http://equilibriohm.wordpress.com/

    http://biohacksblog.com/

    Natural ability without education has more often raised a man to glory and virtue than education without natural ability. - Marcus Aurelius 

  • Thanks for the info!
  • http://equilibriohm.wordpress.com/

    http://biohacksblog.com/

    Natural ability without education has more often raised a man to glory and virtue than education without natural ability. - Marcus Aurelius 

  • Be careful with thinking that increased fat consumption will speed up your induction. While it has been shown that MCT does have an effect on ketotic metabolism, I am not so sure that dosing fat first 2 weeks is a good idea. Fat burning metabolism begins essentially with less than 100g carbs/day, regardless what else you put through your liver. You may in fact, prolong your induction, by oxidizing the exdogenous fats rather then adapting to utilizing adipose tissue stores. Funneling MCT, coconut oil, gf butter, through your liver won't make you more ketotic if you're higher than 100g/day so why would it make you ketotic when you're doing 30g? This is the question I should've asked myself before inducing ketosis 2 weeks before finals.


     


    Fat burning is just that: your liver oxidizes fats, you have some ketones in blood as an effect. Ketosis begins only when your body can utilize these ketones (betahydroxybutyrate, acetoacetic acid, lactic acid). The fact that you're eating more fat probably increases the likelihood you will have more of these ketones in your blood, but it doesn't guarantee a faster induction. In fact, you would be putting more stress on your metabolism resulting in upset stomach, nausea etc.


     


    I still can barely eat coconut oil b/c eating so much of it early on to "speed up" ketosis had made me vomit multiple times and I probably conditioned a response. I actually haven't met any carb-loading athlete who hasn't vomited at least once inducing ketosis within a week-2 week period. It took Peter Attia about a year to come down from carbs for example. I went from 400g-600g carbs a day to 30g/dasy in a week and was debilitated with major malaise (aka keto-flu) for two weeks following that. It was horrific and adding the fats just exacerbated the problem. 


     


    My advise: get himalayan salt, magnesium orotate or some other good version, potassium gluconate. Leave the fats alone for two weeks (you probably have some on you right?) Get fiber for digestion, glutamine and gelatin for stomach repair, literally get all the vitamins including iodine from chlorella/spirulina, charcoal for potential nausea(if you think something may make you puke take it.) I literally would not induce ketosis coming from sports-related carb-addiction unless I had all of the above plus major antioxidants. I am only saying this b/c it was the worst dietary experience I've ever had. 


  • Generally speaking everyone wakes up at some level of ketosis, eating fat keeps it going and increases the level of ketosis instead of ending it with a carby breakfast.  


    You don't want to be in ketosis for long periods of time (not healthy) so even a big shot of carbs once a week is the minimum recommendation.  


    Your fasting window can be as long as you feel comfortable, it is not meant to be an uncomfortable experience.


     


    Thanks for explaining this, (extreme) Ketosis sounds like a state i'd like to avoid when I read the stories from people that are sick like a dog on this forum.


    If you eat the normal BP diet, can you go into this state? shouldn't people be warned for this?

  • edited June 2013

    Thanks for explaining this, (extreme) Ketosis sounds like a state i'd like to avoid when I read the stories from people that are sick like a dog on this forum.


    If you eat the normal BP diet, can you go into this state? shouldn't people be warned for this?


     


     


    I think so. I think the prob of people falling into ketosis on this diet is significant and should be more obviously addressed. In terms of "public service" (or marketing) people should be clearly informed what this diet may entail: higher cholesterol readings (whatever the hell these mean) and mild to serious ketosis. This is just an empirical fact at this point. 


     


    I think Dave assumes an informed readership b/c his diet essentially targets post-paleo people (the 2.0 thing) who are familiar with ketosis. God bless you if you just get here through a random reddit link, have no idea about nutrition, do not listen to 1 podcast and just decide to "power through" a bulletproof diet pdf for a few months. ;)


  • joeld123joeld123
    edited June 2013

    If you do even a bit of research into ketosis you will find that yes it is dangerous to be in it too long.  However, Dave and many on this forum talk about having at least two carb loading meals a week to ensure you are not in ketosis too long.  I guess the possibility of this is pretty high (for this danger zone) if one is doing the rapid weight loss protocol.  But this is why Dave says it's for losing weight faster than you probably should.


  • He could put this in the diet itself more clearly, because after reading this site for a few days and listening to the podcasts, it comes accross as if you should not eat carbs at all, he only makes exceptions for when you do anyway, "then eat such and so".


  • Okay, I was doing great with all of the feedback, but then something confused me... alnv said:


     


      Leave the fats alone for two weeks (you probably have some on you right?)


     


    Gulty, I have lots of fat stored which is my main reason for adopting the plan. I am on week three and haven't been sick at all from the fat, but if I want a more dramatic weightloss should I stay away from the fats?  I thought the fats aided in the weight loss...am I wrong here?


  • edited June 2013

    Okay, I was doing great with all of the feedback, but then something confused me... alnv said:


     


      Leave the fats alone for two weeks (you probably have some on you right?)


     


    Gulty, I have lots of fat stored which is my main reason for adopting the plan. I am on week three and haven't been sick at all from the fat, but if I want a more dramatic weightloss should I stay away from the fats?  I thought the fats aided in the weight loss...am I wrong here?


     


     


     


    That was not an insult btw. We store like 100x more fat than glucose in our adipose tissue.


     


    If you are already 2 weeks in and feeling fine, don't even worry about what I said. I just wanted to warn people who drink 5 gatorades a day and decide to induce ketosis without due research.


     


    The point though, was that only some fats (afaik only MCT) speed up the metabolic transition to ketosis, not sure about weight loss. I would imagine increasing fat intake would not really do much in either direction. Once you're off of carbs, you will burn off all fat the body does not need and, regardless of how much fat you eat, you probably won't get thinner or fatter than your phenotype. 


     


    Let me just put it this way: you can induce ketosis faster by fasting than by eating anything at all, including MCT and GF butter. 


  • http://www.lucastafur.com/2011/03/ketomyths_08.html


    http://www.lucastafur.com/2011/03/ketomyths-ii_17.html


    http://www.archevore.com/panu-weblog/2011/2/6/thoughts-on-ketosis-i.html


    http://owndoc.com/pdf/The-fat-of-the-land.pdf


    Also look up Vilhjalmur Stefansson's multiple all-meat experiments 


    I don't see where if you research ketosis it is blatantly said that it leads to problems.


    Also, I don't believe MCTs speed up the transition into ketosis. They allow you to get the benefits of ketosis without actually being in ketosis because they are turned into ketone bodies and can also be used directly for energy. Therefore if you are in ketosis, AND you take MCTs, you're merely enhancing the ketosis. Think of it like creatine - you're saturating your muscles with creatine for recycling of ADP to ATP (I believe, I haven't really looked into creatine). You're doing something similar with MCTs - you're saturating your body with ketones to be used for your brain/tissues/other organs. The same can be accomplished with Ketone Esters - Peter Attia has spoken about this. If you had the capabilities you could essentially just suck down ketone esters and produce ketones. It doesn't mean you're in a state of ketosis, you are simply taking in exogenous ketones.


    http://equilibriohm.wordpress.com/

    http://biohacksblog.com/

    Natural ability without education has more often raised a man to glory and virtue than education without natural ability. - Marcus Aurelius 

  • edited June 2013

    I would advise you to look into the material yourself: http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/cancer-treatments.htmlhttp://www.lucastafur.com/search/label/high%20proteinhttp://www.ketotic.org/http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/http://archaeonova.blogspot.com/2013/04/myths-of-paleo-part-one.htmlhttp://www.jackkruse.com/do-food-electrons-impart-a-quantum-effect/http://eatingacademy.com/


     


    Ketosis is a complex state but I'am of the opinion carb refeeds are not necessary, although they can work well. I myself have been doing weekly carb refeeds as per Carb Nite Solution/Carb Backloading to gain muscle, but theoretically it is entirely possible to gain muscle sans carbs and only use protein+fat. It may not be easy, but it is possible - as is highly intense physical performance as evidenced by Peter Attia, Barry Murphy, and Ben Greenfield (some others as well).


     


    Where are you drawing these conclusions from??? I did a 5min google on the names you gave in the end and came up with:


     


    Attia, who completely fucked up his max vo2 levels. Albeit his LOWER LEVEL (why did you say intense physical) aerobic endurance seemed to improve. However, no data on his running/cycling or w/e times pre and post diet. 


     


    Greenfield, who awkwardly enough does seem to carb load at least for his races. And from his website he states "So if you are on a low carbohydrate diet, I highly recommend carbohydrate intake for exercise sessions that are 1) intense; 2) involve weight training; 3) are longer than 2 hours in duration."


     


    and


     


    "4. Inject Carbohydrate Loading Days.


    This is another biggie. Long term carbohydrate deprivation leads to a complete depletion of your body’s storage glycogen levels, depression of your immune system, decrease in metabolic function, and a host of other issues that you may be able to put up with if you’re content to lie around on the couch, but that you’re guaranteed to get completely destroyed by if you’re planning on regular physical activity or competition like Crossfit, triathlon or marathon."


     


    Do you understand what you are doing when you are not performing carb loads? You are essentially depleting your glygocen stores, depletion of glygocen stores does increase burning fat for fuel by upregulating ampk activity. AMPK activity is the opposite of mtor, so you are fucked sideways here. Please understand what you are doing before you do it, with raging ampk signaling you are not going to gain a single ounce of muscle. 


     


    So in short you are drawing some extreme conclusions which are not evidence based and potentially very dangerous to your health. 


  • edited June 2013

    Listen to this at 37:30  http://www.bulletproofexec.com/podcast-45-q-a-coffee-kale-and-adrenal-fatigue/


     


    Dave says, "Long-term ketosis, without an occasional re-feed, can trigger adrenal fatigue. And this is a problem for people who do the bulletproof diet and say 'Oh I'm tough, and I'm not gonna do the once a week re-feed' for men, or the once or twice a week re-feed for women. If you go months on end, your sleep quality will decline, your cortisol levels will go up and your adrenals will get tired. Because, you.. it's extra stress on the body if you don't get enough carbohydrate to manufacture mucus and other polysaccharide based molecules that coat many of the cells in your body. I know this from personal experience, experimenting with one serving of vegetables a day, and the rest meat, and butter, and MCT oil for three months. It was not a comfortable time, and my sleep went to hell."


     


    Hope this helps!


  • edited June 2013

    Moved.


  • edited June 2013

    Lugman, all of that couldn't be farther from the truth.


     


    (1) Vo2 max is known to be an extremely poor marker of performance - read Body By Science and/or Body By Science Q&A book for further information. Secondly, Peter said that he lost peak power but gained a tremendous amount of endurance and ability to have endless fuel - and he thinks the trade off is amazing. He also said that in the literature it is completely possible to gain muscle mass sans carbs and increase peak power. It takes time, a lot more time than the 2-4 or 6 week studies normally carried out. This then leads to studies done by Phinney and Volek, they both have shown increases and maintenance of peak power and muscle mass. Ron Rosedale has spoken about how many of his patients gain lean mass after they go ketogenic and then start RESTRICTING PROTEIN. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjpxQJ0ykMc, this is not endurance training, lol. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB7aGnfLB-8


     


    (2) Ben Greenfield is in a state of ketosis: http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2013/05/low-carb-triathlon-training/


    and http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/shownotes/7914/682-guest-hosts-ben-greenfield-and-brock-on-the-dangers-of-extreme-carb-restriction/. He has routinely commented on Dr. Jack Kruse stating that Carbs are not needed for performance and has spoken about the PPP (Pentose Phosphate Pathway) and up regulating fat oxidation, even for glycolytic sports. Ben Greenfield is not doing carb refeeds any more, you are extremely mistaken. http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2013/06/jackkruse/; If you look at his post on his ketogenic experiment, I commented, my name is Jake Jaglarski, he specifically said to give ketosis a go with MARTIAL ARTS - intense work if you aren't into that kind of thing. Oh here is another example: http://bjjcaveman.com/2012/12/29/what-happens-to-my-ketone-levels-after-bjj/ bjj and keto experiment.


     


    (3) You obviously don't understand up regulating fat oxidation. I suggest you read the book The Ketogenic Diet, by Lyle McDonald (strength/bodybuilding coach and author). Also, do you not realize that our body is less than 2% carbohydrate? Muscle is mainly made up of Intra-muscular Triglycerides..... FAT!! http://jackkruse.com/forum/showthread.php?297-Fasted-State-Training-Adaptations this is Barry Murphy, he is going to be on the Ben Greenfield podcast. He has been winning extremely hard races in a calorically restricted, fasted, ketogenic state. During intense races going through mountain ranges in various kinds of weather(where his heart rate gets into the intense glycolytic zones) he eats almost no food and very little carbohydrate. http://www.jackkruse.com/emf-4-why-might-you-need-carbs-for-performance/: you may need carbs - if you want to remain unadapted and believe that carbs are necessary.


     


    (4) http://archaeonova.blogspot.com/2013/04/myths-of-paleo-part-one.html read this. Highly enlightening. We evolved from the ice age - there were almost zero carbs year round... Do you actually believe that these people couldn't partake in physical activity because they didn't have maximally full muscle glycogen and just walked and slept? That's far from the science. Maybe read this book: http://owndoc.com/pdf/The-fat-of-the-land.pdf by Vilhjamur Stefansson.


     


    I'm going to the city in about an hour so I can't really delve into the hundreds of citations I have compiled and actually read through. If you would like I can do that later tonight or in the morning - it would make for an interesting discussion. Nonetheless, maybe you should actually do your research and not do a "5 min google search" to back up preconceived notions - that's not really Bulletproof now is it? Also, just because Dave said in a podcast that carbs are needed does not make it true. Dave is highly intelligent, much more than I, that doesn't mean everything he says is true, I'm sure he'd even vouch for that. All I can say is I have been toying around with this idea of fat adaptation and the PPP for martial arts performance, and so far I can say it's been tough but I'm improving. I eat VLC (under 30g carbs a day all from things like avocado's - the digestion of these substances costs the same amount of glucose as is taken in), 6-8 days and then do a body by science inspired workout routine, only with the addition of rest-pause and an elevation training mask and with free weights. I'm no doubt in ketosis when I perform these workouts and all of my lifts have increased and I have a noticeable amount of muscle gain. After this day, as I said, I do eat carbs, but much less than anyone recommends here - maybe 150 grams but normally something around 100 or 90. Oh, I'm also fasted or semi-fasted during the workouts (sometimes 10-12hrs, somtimes 6-8hrs) and if I did eat breakfast before working out in the evening, it was zero-carb. I've done a few BJJ sessions like this as well. After I get more money (just started a new job, going to be manager at the GMO, trans fat laden McDonalds), I will be creating a blog and meticulously documenting everything. I will admit, this won't be for a few months, but when I do I will create a post and notify the members at this board, Marks Daily Apple, Dr. Kruse' Boards, and PaleoHacks. I will get a WellnessFX profile done before hand and track my ketone levels through my breath. I will take pictures of and weigh all my food. I will blog extensively about this.


     


    As Barry would say, "When the stimulus resonates, the adaptation occurs."


    http://equilibriohm.wordpress.com/

    http://biohacksblog.com/

    Natural ability without education has more often raised a man to glory and virtue than education without natural ability. - Marcus Aurelius 

  • I just want to clarify... you are talking about never ever refeeding carbs right?

    Working out fasted and/or in ketosis is hugely different from that.


    I admit I dont have the time to go through everything you linked right now.


    What I do know is that when I go to a workout depleted I am not hitting my top numbers. This seems to be thr case with most of the people I've talked to
  • Well I will go through your links in the beginning of next week.
  • This is an example of what I'm talking about:


     


    "Ben and others might benefit froim reading this...



    Exercise is simple, and the body is clever. Our physiology is not intelligent, it is purely responsive.


    I have been learning and experiencing the true meaning of these

    statements the more and more I practice what I do. You see, we now live

    in a world where modern technology, science, medicine etc has developed

    ways to essentially inhibit the human bodies natural responses. This

    lies true for both general health and fitness. I won't get into the

    health aspect but in terms of the fitness aspect, just think about the

    following.




    We now have sports drinks and sports foods which are supposed to improve

    our performance and delay fatigue. However, if you've been following

    this thread, you'll know that food, in particular carbohydrates, eaten

    before or even during exercise downregulates fat oxidation, switches off

    PPP and inhibits ketosis. Yet, the world has been brainwashed into

    thinking that you cannot exercise unless you are fully carb loaded,

    constantly consume food during and constantly consume fluid during. In

    terms of hydration, I applying almost the same strategy I do with food.

    In other words, let the adaptation occur by allowing your physiology to

    respond. It doesn't respond if you are constantly drinking and

    constantly taking in electrolytes. You'll find a good explanation of

    this if you look up Prof Tim Noakes. He has shown that we can completely

    self regulate our own hydration, balance our sodium levels and self

    control our own hydration by drinking to thirst.




    The above point holds true for many other things in sport and life. We

    have heart rate monitors and GPS watches to track our distance,splits,

    HR zones etc. We have compression garments to "prevent" muscle fatigue

    and recovery powders to help us "recover". We then have "ice baths" ,

    sleep machines, stress monitors and apps that tell you when you can

    train. The list goes on. In my opinion, and this is an important point,

    its all a load of BS.




    My reasoning is simple. Our bodies are clever. Let them be clever. This

    is the key point. It ties in with practically everything Jack is writing

    about. In order for the adaptation to occur, the stimulus must

    resonate. If you want fat adaptation, keto adaptation, PPP activation,

    semiconductor functioning, electron flow, cell signalling, timing and

    quantum biology all singing and all dancing... then this is what you

    need to do, remove the inhibitors i.e. modern foods, modern devices and

    modern living. EMF's, carbs, blue light, heat, sports foods, sports

    monitoring devices and machines. Instead, let the body do the work.




    If you want a practical example, here's my training today:




    4.5hrs cycle, 2 x 30min mountain climbs.




    Before: nothing


    During: nothing, 3-4 drops of water




    After: real food, Epi-Paleo




    no HR monitor, no compression garments, no electrolytes, no sports gels

    or bars, no recovery drinks or ice baths. And just for the record, there

    was a time when I used all of those things. However, when you learn how

    to listen to the body and go on feel, you realise what really works and

    why."


     


    Barry


    http://equilibriohm.wordpress.com/

    http://biohacksblog.com/

    Natural ability without education has more often raised a man to glory and virtue than education without natural ability. - Marcus Aurelius 

  • edited June 2013

    First and foremost. I am not against ketogenic dieting, I myself use a cyclical ketogenic approach. Second I am not against fasted training, I have done all my cardio after 16 hour fast for last two years.


     


    Thirdly, I should have not made such an aggravated statement about ketosis and strength/muscle. The thing is, it is highly dependent on your base level. For me... I weight (84-85kg) at 175cm (185lbs - 5`8) and in my last workout I did reps in close grip bench with 110kg. To give you some frame of reference. So when I am talking about developing strength or increasing lean muscle mass in ketosis this is my starting point.


     


    You can progress strength-wise, however it will be slower. You can progress if you are a novice. However if you are already fairly/moderately strong you can't expect much gains in ketosis. Carbs, I think, are crucial for top high intensity performance.


     


    I went through the fasted adaptation thread and couple of links you posted. Was interesting stuff for sure, but looks like a lot of the authors there agreed upon the fact that carbs are advantegous in high intensity activities. Ben Greenfield post was interesting, notice though that in his plan he had added carbs in high intensity days and he was aware of possible thyroid function issues (which are well documented) and took steps to prevent such issues. His approach seemed very intelligent and thought out. 


     


    Now what comes to the original matter, I still feel no one should "recommend" ketosis without carb loading. The thing with Barry and others seems to be that they have gradually went where they are, over several years. For someone without their experience ketosis without carb loads could lead to potential health issues (which again are well documented). 


     


    And that youtube training montage of some ketosis guy handling very unimpressive weights only proves my point about muscle/strength gain (unless ofcourse the guy is an endurance athlete, I don't know what he is). 


     


    And then I don't understand why would you want to keto-adapt yourself to a sport like BJJ. Only place where that seems to be any use would be ultra distance (and even there it doesn't seem to give an athlete a definitive edge). I am personally not all that excited about PPP, I don't see what's the rage. Obviously you are free to experiment, as you wish. 


  • Now don't pile on here, but what about refeeding with good ole beer? If it's passable then I don't have to feel guilty about drinking beer on the weekends.


  • StevoStevo Upgrade in Progress

    "Alcohol itself, is a mycotoxin." - Dave


  • @Lugman, I understand where you're coming from, and to a degree I agree. I would read through the forum thread where Barry posted, he goes into depth about how beta-oxidation and PPAR and keto-adaptation can be used for strength athletes and MMA fighters. In fact, on Dr. Kruse's forums, there is a female power lifter who has been using ketosis to drop weight, but since adding extra seafood (therefore iodine and selenium) and CT, her strength is actually INCREASING on a ketogenic diet. Keep in mind, if you lose weight and can lift the same amount of weight, you are technically stronger, so she has gotten MUCH stronger to lift more weight at a lighter body weight. There is then a man that goes by the username of Danco356 (I believe) who is a trainer, strength coach, martial artist, and MoveNat practitioner/teacher. He has been keto-adapting to enter the PPP for purely glycolytic activities such as martial arts and weight training. Another member, IvanDrago has been doing the same.


     


    I'm not saying that someone who has no experience with low(er) carbs or fasting should jump straight into a ketogenic diet full time and try to outperform everyone in every activity. What I'am saying is, with the proper mind set, with the proper adaptation period (not 2-4 or 6 weeks like most studies suggest, but 2-3 YEARS!), and with the proper design, an individual can compete on a ketogenic diet in high intensity activities such as competitive weightlifting, crossfit, martial arts, etc. as someone consuming tons of pasta and gatorade. In fact, physiologically speaking, their body will have more energy. Their strength/speed/agility, etc. will depend on their individual training. But the adaptation alone will provide an immense benefit. Go and read EMF 4: Why Might You Need Carbs For Performance.... by Dr. Kruse. The man doing the resistance training is in fact an endurance athlete, he has no need to be extremely powerful. Also, many of his 'experiments' were done only after months of adaptation. Ben Greenfield and Dr. Kruse are in agreement that it takes 24-36 months to truly adapt, unless you are taking care of things such as EMF exposure and water (drinking structured water). Those were in fact Ben Greenfield's words to me, and he encouraged I give it a go for BJJ. There is then the man blogging about doing BJJ and a ketogenic diet, and the only time he 'bonked' was when he went in not only fasted, but having not consumed any sodium.


     


    Paul Jaminet has even alluded to the fact that fat is more useful for building muscle than carbs are. Dave has even stated that when you resistance train and consume carbs you should cover them in fat, and not go all out carb loading like John Kiefer advises. The simple fact of the matter is fat = more ATP generated, PPP = ATP is used as a backup energy system because water semiconduction is working in the body (protinicity in water), in essence you don't have to rely upon rapid recycling of ATP for energy, because ATP will be used as a back up source of energy in the PPP. Fats take up more place in muscle than carbs and protein combined. Scientifically speaking, everything I'm touching upon is completely possible, it is really just on the fringe of what has been explored right now. Certain athletes have used bits and pieces - for instance Peter Attia use ketosis, but it wasn't a full ketogenic adaptation and he was consuming a diet full of anti-nutrients, toxins, and was probably deficient in common things such as iodine, selenium, and vitamin K (he ate peanuts, non-raw cheese, deli meats, diet soda, etc.) and took a fraction of the supplements Ben Greenfield does. Ben Greenfield is now giving the PPP a go, but he hasn't been adapting fully yet, but he takes advantage of minimalist training, various technologies, and supplements that increase FFA utilization such as his X2Performance with D-Ribose, and Pinitol or whatever it was named. Then certain athletes (Lance Armstrong) have used CT and contrast adaptation (to warm environments). They all are using an individual piece of the puzzle of the PPP, and no one has yet connected it all.... besides Barry, and he keeps to himself and occasionally posts on the Optimized Life forum boards (Dr. Kruse's). That is what I'm after. Utilizing CT, cyclical ketosis upon seasons (CKD in spring+summer, VLC strict ketosis in winter/fall), Minimalist HIT training, fasted state adaptations, and a diet that is heading from low-quality paleo (non-grass fed I mean) to 100% Bulletproof and Epi-Paleo. When all of the pieces of the puzzle fall into place, we will see if it is possible or not.


    http://equilibriohm.wordpress.com/

    http://biohacksblog.com/

    Natural ability without education has more often raised a man to glory and virtue than education without natural ability. - Marcus Aurelius 

  • I did read the whole thread and more. I actuallu got really interested about the science side, which is unfortunately mainly highly theoretical so far.


    You didnt mention wim hof, but the problem with the performance of one individual is that we cant tell if he does it in in spite of. Cant draw many conclusions. Wim himseld seems to attribute his success to specific practise (cold adaptation) and some form of mindfulness training.


    I am approaching this from purely practical cost-benefit point of view. Is there an edge? And what is the cost? (so far it is unconfirmed whether barry for example performs in spite or because or maybe the adaptations are a zero sum game).
  • joeld123joeld123
    edited August 2013

    I obtained a nutrition book(textbook?!?) and here is what they say about ketosis(and carb minimums):


     


    Ketosis

    The second problem with an inadequate supply of carbohydrate concerns

    a precarious shift in the body’s energy metabolism. Instead of producing energy by

    following its main metabolic pathway, fat takes another route in which fat fragments

    combine with each other. This shift causes an accumulation of normally scarce acidic

    products called ketone bodies.

    Ketone bodies can accumulate in the blood, causing ketosis. When they reach

    high levels, they can disturb the normal acid-base balance, a life-threatening situation.

    People eating diets that produce ketosis may develop deficiencies of vitamins and

    minerals, loss of bone minerals, elevated blood cholesterol, impaired mood, and other

    adverse outcomes.35 In addition, glycogen stores become too scanty to meet a metabolic

    emergency or to support vigorous muscular work.

    Ketosis isn’t all bad, however. Ketone bodies provide a fuel alternative to glucose

    for brain and nerve cells when glucose is lacking, such as in starvation or very-lowcarbohydrate

    diets. Not all brain tissues can use ketones, however—some rely exclusively

    on glucose, so the body must still sacrifice some protein to provide it, but at a

    slower rate. A therapeutic ketogenic diet in addition to medication has substantially

    reduced seizures in about half of children and adults with hard-to-treat epilepsy,

    although many find the diet difficult to follow for long periods.

     

    The DRI Minimum Recommendation for Carbohydrate The minimum

    amount of digestible carbohydrate determined by the DRI committee to adequately

    feed the brain and reduce ketosis has been set at 130 grams a day for an averagesized

    person.37 Several times this minimum is recommended to maintain health and

    glycogen stores (explained in the next section). The recommended amounts of vegetables,

    fruits, legumes, grains, and milk presented in Chapter 2 deliver abundant

    carbohydrates.

    (from Nutrition Concepts and Controversies 13th edition)


     


     


    Dig that, you're killing yourselves you quacks!  This changes everything, I better run out and eat a whole mess of pasta before I die.  


    Man, this is what they teach nutritionists/dietitians I wager.  


  • StevoStevo Upgrade in Progress

    Maybe they've confused ketosis with ketoacidosis?


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