Carbs Vs. Starch

I am unclear on this issue. as far as reefed days making this diet cyclical, I have been fully in the ketogenic state for a while now, and in fact not to sure if ive fully bumped myself out of it for a couple weeks, did the potato reefed days a few times, made me feel pretty good. recently I found a source for literally the most epic raw goat milk ive ever had, its like when you first found out you could eat a shitload of butter on this diet and your body couldn't stop ingesting it for a bit, every time I take a sip I end up like an alcoholic and finishing the milk, its amazing compared to any raw goat milk ive ever had. But since there have been a couple days I binged on raw milk, I figured that counted as my reefed, is this ok to do instead of sweet potato or do I need the starch? like once a week gorge on epic milk, than go back into the regular diet, I do not want any allergies like dave got from to low carb, pretty sure its fine though.


Comments

  • ACH85ACH85 ✭✭
    edited March 2014

    I'm not sure what the carb/starch issue is... you refeed with starchy carbs such as sweet potatoes. Just get the nutrition facts for what you're eating and try to get 150g+ of carbs for the day. 


     


    Raw milk isn't super low on the diet infographic, though it doesn't mention goats. In a recent podcast talking about K2 Dave did say that if you tolerate cheese well, go for it, which was surprising to me. That's here. So if you tolerate the milk well and especially if you get that "my body wants this" feeling, I'd keep it. 


     


    I'd be pretty hesitant to say you could replace your carb refeed with goat's milk though. Hopefully someone else can get into the details of whether or not the carbs in milk can do all the things we want them to for the refeed, but I'm just not convinced. I'd do my 150g+ carb refeed from starchy carbs as advised, and have the goats milk on that day too. 


     


    The only time I've crashed from low carb and gotten low mucous issues, I was also exercising. Just don't try to push through dry eyes and sinuses - if you get that, carb up before your planned refeed. 


  • Goat milk has about 40 grams of carbs per quart and a typical refeed requires at least 400 grams. So drinking goat milk would likely be an insufficient source of carbs if it were to compose all of the carbs for a refeed day and even if you could get it that high why would you? It's expensive relative to other carbs and you'd probably get issues from drinking three gallons of goat milk in a day.
  • Well yea, the question was that I went through like a gallon in two days, which is a lot of carbs on top of my regular diet with alot of veggies, so I assumed that since I got such a huge carb load compared to normal I could count it as a refers day and continue as normal, and I know this will happen a few more times. So I wasn't sure if it was also the starch on refers days that was necessary, since I've been skipping it for large amount of goat milk.
  • edited March 2014
    Eh I wouldn't count that as a true refeed phase. The milk plus the veggies is probably 110 grams of carbohydrate. Which is about 440 calories and something like 15% of totally daily intake if you are active.

    So say you go from an average daily in take of 200 carb calories to 400 one day. Does your body store that extra amount in anticipation of more fasting our does it just burn that amount? Well, muscle tissue becomes insulin resistant from extreme low carb so my guess is that the extra glucose hangs out in the blood and is mostly just burned for energy. So you probably need to commit to getting either an appropriate amount of carbs everyday or going fucking nuts on the refeed days
  • ACH85ACH85 ✭✭
    edited March 2014


    muscle tissue becomes insulin resistant from extreme low carb so my guess is that the extra glucose hangs out in the blood and is mostly just burned for energy.




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    Very interesting, do you have data on that point? My overall insulin sensitivity has gone up / resistance down since going low carb, but I hadn't heard about muscle tissue in specific and would love to confirm that and read more. Also, are you referring to muscle tissue itself, muscle glycogen, or both? Thanks. Fully agree with everything else you said. 


  • edited March 2014
    Defective Short-Term Starvation Versus High-Fat Diet on Intramyocellular Triglycerideaccumulation and Insulin Resistance in Physically Fit Men

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    Published in Exp.Physiol 2006 Volume 91 number 4, page 693 to 703

     

    Insulin resistance in the context of muscle tissues is not necessarily bad. When carbs are serverly limited the insulin resistance of muscles increases so that any available glucose is allocated to the brain rather than muscle tissue. Keep in mind that insulin resistance with respect to a given tissue just means that a higher amount of insulin is needed for glucose to enter those cells. This relationship will vary, but I don't see any way around it. I mean how can the bodie's tolerance for anything improve when expose to that factor reduces?


     


    Some people increase their carbs, then check themselves with a blood glucose meter, and often times their glucose levels will look normal. This is deceptive because a glucose levels are managed at the expense of a huge insulin spike. Maybe this is fine once a week, and maybe this effect is mitigated when sugar spikes are part of a cyclical routine. The bottom line is that limiting glucose down regulates the mechanisms for managing it.


  • ACH85ACH85 ✭✭


    I mean how can the bodie's tolerance for anything improve when expose to that factor reduces?


     


    Some people increase their carbs, then check themselves with a blood glucose meter, and often times their glucose levels will look normal. This is deceptive because a glucose levels are managed at the expense of a huge insulin spike. Maybe this is fine once a week, and maybe this effect is mitigated when sugar spikes are part of a cyclical routine. The bottom line is that limiting glucose down regulates the mechanisms for managing it.


     




     


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    Hmm. To be honest I'd always viewed it the opposite way, thinking that from an evolutionary perspective we evolved in an environment where fat was easier to come by than carbs (paleo, basically) and therefore insulin sensitivity would increase to compensate for a lack of carbs. Meaning as soon as you got a little sugar in your system on a low-carb diet, you'd be insulin sensitive to quickly absorb it. Also type 2 diabetes, basically severe insulin resistance, improves on a low-carb diet and gets worse with lots of candy.


     


    The study you referenced is on a fairly short time scale (67 hours) and the experimental group abruptly switched from normal carb to either a water-only fast or very low carb, so I wanted to dig deeper. I found an article where Mark Sisson tackles this question that was pretty helpful. Basically, he's claiming that the general concept I laid out above is true for moderate carb restriction, and he has 3 studies backing that up. BUT he's also very clear that the concept you discussed of increased insulin resistance in order to ensure adequate glucose for the brain is true of severe carb restriction - less than 10% calories from carbs. Which some of us may definitely be doing. So thanks for that. Now I've got to figure out if I'm getting >10% of calories from carbs...


     


    BTW, the study benmahalik referenced is here, and Mark Sisson's article is here

  • John BrissonJohn Brisson The Legend Formerly Known as Ron Swanson ✭✭✭

    White rice and wild rice could also be used to help you get the carbs on refeed days.


    My book Fix Your Gut, is offered on Amazon for $9.99.

     

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    Hmm. To be honest I'd always viewed it the opposite way, thinking that from an evolutionary perspective we evolved in an environment where fat was easier to come by than carbs (paleo, basically) and therefore insulin sensitivity would increase to compensate for a lack of carbs. Meaning as soon as you got a little sugar in your system on a low-carb diet, you'd be insulin sensitive to quickly absorb it. Also type 2 diabetes, basically severe insulin resistance, improves on a low-carb diet and gets worse with lots of candy.


     


    The study you referenced is on a fairly short time scale (67 hours) and the experimental group abruptly switched from normal carb to either a water-only fast or very low carb, so I wanted to dig deeper. I found an article where Mark Sisson tackles this question that was pretty helpful. Basically, he's claiming that the general concept I laid out above is true for moderate carb restriction, and he has 3 studies backing that up. BUT he's also very clear that the concept you discussed of increased insulin resistance in order to ensure adequate glucose for the brain is true of severe carb restriction - less than 10% calories from carbs. Which some of us may definitely be doing. So thanks for that. Now I've got to figure out if I'm getting >10% of calories from carbs...


     


    BTW, the study benmahalik referenced is here, and Mark Sisson's article is here




     


    Nice post. Insulin resistance at the level of the tissue does not imply overall insulin resistance. So it is possible that a higher than normal carb intake in the midst of muscular insulin resistance would produce a small insulin response because of the brain and other tissues that remain insulin sensitive. In that case you would have a net insulin sensitivity. 


     However, I think it is reasonable to assume that across the spectrum of carb intake, like at each percentage, there is a range of tolerance. So if you are at an average carb intake of 10% then your body is conditioned to handle a carb intake within a certain distance of that average which in the case of a 10% average might be between 0% and 35% or something like that depending on your genes and other factors.


    As far as the relationship to tolerance and exposure, it's certainly a mixed bag. Generally, exposure increases tolerance. Your body gets the genetic signals to produce more enzymes and things like that. However, at the extreme, damage starts to occur and tolerance decreases. This is exactly what happens when alcoholics get liver damage and tolerance decreases. There's a ton of examples, but I think there is generally a U-curve response to these sorts of things.


    In the case of low carb increasing insulin sensitivity. I understand that it works for some people, but that does not imply that a relatively high carb diet will cause a high insulin response, that insulin resistance increases overtime for all high carb diets, or that low carb is absolutely optimal for insulin maintenance.

  • Kiefer has done a lot of research into this subject. Insulin sensitivity also has a lot to do with how healthy you are in the first place. An extremely overweight person is going to have a different insulin reaction that a healthy athlete.


     


    Here's one of his interviews if you're interested.


     


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlgfaMYdTpI#t=472


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