I had never heard of them either. I went to the website, and it seems they are into creating supplements for people with sensitivities and allergies. Here is their history: http://kirkmanlabs.com/Pages/51/History/
Of course, how does one really test this shit? I personally don't have the time and money to invest into following up on manufacturers, so I rely on people like Dave Asprey for recommendations. This seems legit though, and I found them because they seemed to be the only folinic acid + B12 combo out there that made sense.
For ~8 months daily I swallowed Source Naturals "megafolinic," then chewed and soon-after-chewing swallowed the Jarrow methylcobalamin 5000mcg. I then tested at 1283 pg/mL B12 (well into the healthy range.) Probably without much other B12 in my diet.
After that test, I learned that I should be letting the B12 dissolve under my tongue. I've since switched to 2-3x a week with letting it dissolve and haven't retested. I don't think it made my teeth yellow, but I've never had pearly whites.
So my two cents: I suspect chewing 5000mcg B12 daily will move the needle regardless of your rate of absorption in your mouth or intestines, even if you swallow the chewed-up tablet. Unless 2-4 eggs a day and a little bit of dairy during those 8 months is what was responsible for my B12 level, which I doubt.
John BrissonThe Legend Formerly Known as Ron Swanson✭✭✭
For ~8 months daily I swallowed Source Naturals "megafolinic," then chewed and soon-after-chewing swallowed the Jarrow methylcobalamin 5000mcg. I then tested at 1283 pg/mL B12 (well into the healthy range.) Probably without much other B12 in my diet.
After that test, I learned that I should be letting the B12 dissolve under my tongue. I've since switched to 2-3x a week with letting it dissolve and haven't retested. I don't think it made my teeth yellow, but I've never had pearly whites.
So my two cents: I suspect chewing 5000mcg B12 daily will move the needle regardless of your rate of absorption in your mouth or intestines, even if you swallow the chewed-up tablet. Unless 2-4 eggs a day and a little bit of dairy during those 8 months is what was responsible for my B12 level, which I doubt.
I'd love to try a B12 shot for fun though.
You still absorbed alot of the B12 sublingually by eating it. Its better then swallowing a pill that wont be digested by your stomach.
My book Fix Your Gut, is offered on Amazon for $9.99.
Folic acid (also known as folate, vitamin M, vitamin B9, vitamin Bc (or folacin), pteroyl-L-glutamic acid, and pteroyl-L-glutamate) are forms of the water-soluble 9vitamin B and their names have derived from the Latin word folium (which means "leaf").
Leafy vegetables are principal sources of Folic acid.
Folinic acid (also known as citrovorum factor , leucovorin ) is a vitamer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamer) for folic acid, and has the full vitamin activity of this vitamin. It is produced by fermentation or derived from Folic acid.
Maybe someone can let us also know the different advantages of using these?
Is Folinic acid only used to treat certain types of anemias and cancers where as the others are not?
Does folic acid prevent heart disease by lowering homocysteine levels when combined with vitamin B6 and vitamin B12?
so what's the difference between folic acid, folinic acid and folate?
i actually looked into some of this a while back, as i had not really heard much/anything about the folinic acid form...here's what i found,
folinic acid (aka 5-formyltetrahydrofolate?) is commonly found in supplements as calcium folinate...from what i can tell this is an 'older' supplemental form, the newest (and better) form being 5-methyltetrahydrofolate (aka L-5-MTHF, Metafolin, Methylfolate).
& I found some blurb here: "Calcium folinate is inadequate for those with homozygous MTHFR C677T. You must take methylfolate. This is because the body processes folic acid through multiple variations until it finally reaches methylfolate. Calcium folinate = 5-formyltetrahydrofolate. This is three steps above methylfolate. It is not until the final step in the folic acid metabolism that methylfolate finally gets made. The MTHFR enzyme is found between 5,10 methylenetetrahyrofolate and 5-methyltetrahydrofolate (L-5-MTHF or Metafolin or Methylfolate – alias)"
...so the best supp folate/folic option is methylfolate (aka L-5-MTHF, L-5-methyltetrahydrofolate, Metafolin).
I recently found out I had several MTHFR/MTRR gene mutations so I need to make sure I take the "end product" which is 5-MTHF, the active form of folate that the body uses. Here's a good article if you have genetic testing done: http://mthfr.net/mthfr-c677t-mutation-basic-protocol/2012/02/24/ I would recommend Thorne and Metabolic Maintenance as reputable pharma companies for that supplement.
For everyone else I really suggest you check up on this before jumping into folate supplements. As I understand, there is no reason not to take 5-MTHF instead of folinic acid, especially if you don't know whether you have a heterozygous or homozygous mutation of the MTHFR gene.
the system around you is not necessarily aligned with your incentives in mind
folic acid is synthetic and bad for you, supposedly
use the folinic one
so we are wasting our time trying to swalllow b12...
whats the best route to go then??
i use the jarrow b12 plus source naturals folinic
should i chew the b12??
huh??
Suntoucher answers much on his thread.
e.g.
B12 + Folinic Acid (B9)
Roles: B12 - necessary for DNA functions, red blood cell and neurotransmitter production, works with folinic acid.
Why: B12 - common deficiency, needs folinic acid to be safe and absorbed/used well.
Dose: 5mg B12 as (Methylcobalamin or Hydroxycobalamin).
Dose: 800mcg B9 folinic acid (5-MTHF) - NOT FOLIC ACID. Personal note (not D.A.): these seem excessive. A good B-complex seems like a better idea overall - I don't understand the rationale behind these dosages.
Pretty good active ingredients, questionable inactive ingredients (fillers,) compare to Thorne Basic B Complex which isn't a whole lot more money per dose.
Neither comes close to Dave's recommended daily intakes of B12 or folinic acid / 5-MTHF, which is why he recommends separate supplementation.
Hey guys a few things that may be relevant to you:
1. Folic Acid can be very detrimental to some people if you have the wrong genetics (which is a large portion of the population). Ben Lynch, is "the guy", when it comes to understanding folates and methylation (which is the process B12 is used in). Ben Lynch refers to folic acid as poison with regards to its accumulation and impacts for people with the unlucky genetics.
2. Thorne is a good quality all round B12 support - the b-complex #12 (as discussed in this thread, most B12 supps have ingredients you don't want)
3. Measuring serum B12 is only the start - my serum B12 has always been well above average thanks to supplementation, however the B12 was not getting into my cells/ used properly in the methylation process. This results in all manner of under-optimized body processes from poor detoxification and toxin build up, to immune dysregulation, undermethylated DNA (genes that you don't want expressed, like viral genes, getting expressed), undermethylation... and end results like neuropathy, and other central nervous system issues. The best tests measure your B12 and folates at the cell membrane level. Ben and I discuss the complexities of B12 and "transport" and the more in depth tests in this interview: http://thequantifiedbody.net/ep-5-optimizing-methylation-dr-ben-lynch/ (warning - get's very quant - geeky)
Is it even necessary to supplement with this stuff if you're eating plenty of red meat and taking spirulina?
This is my first post here so take it for what it's worth. But in my opinion if you are thinking about taking these then you should have a genetic methylation analysis. The cheapest way is to use date from 23andme (costs $100) and then put it into genegenie (costs $10). It will show all your methyl cycle mutations. If you do not have an MTHFR mutation you probably don't need methylfolate. If you have mutations in other genes that increase methylation (COMT, CBR, etc.) then you may not do well with methylated versions of the vitamins. and should take other tyepes of B12 (hydroxycobabamin or adenosylcobalamin). The easiest chart to find out is here : http://www.scribd.com/doc/132017201/Dr-Amy-s-Simplified-Road-Map-to-Health#scribd on page 10. I don't really know much about Dr. Yasko but many people in the MTHFR community seem to find her information helpful.
If you don't have any of these mutations you probably don't need to supplement these at all if you eat a healthy diet. It's worth the cost of analysis to save you from wasting money on useless supplements you don't need in my opinion.
Do not take anything I say here as medical advice.
Comments
http://www.bulletproofexec.com/optimize-your-supplements/
I'm taking the methyl b-12 from Jarrow which is methyl cobalamin 5000 mcg
And the Folate from Solgar 800mcg
Hey, any updates on this topic?
It's tough to find the right type for both in one product. I think you're stuck taking 2 pills unless you want to start up a business.
What do you think about this one? I just ordered:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0075DFP2I/ref=pe_385040_30332200_TE_item
Good find, it has the right types for both.
I would personally recommend either http://www.amazon.com/L-methylfolate-Methylcobalamin-Adenosylcobalamin-Seeking-Health/dp/B00822JNTC ($20/60 tablets) and http://www.thorne.com/Products/Vitamins/Multi_Bs/prd~B120.jsp ($16/60 capsules) since I've had good experiences with both of them (albeit in other supplements as I don't take B12 (why would you need this if you're on a BP diet?)) and they don't use all the crap in the capsules and usually get their dosages for the necessary vitamin right. Unlike others they also usually supply you with another vitamin or mineral that makes the main vitamin more readily absorbable.
the system around you is not necessarily aligned with your incentives in mind
memento mori
I invested in a two-months supply of Nutrience. I will see what it does and report back.
(Not bad for 50bucks/month and not having to take alllll of those pills!)
Anyone else doing that?
How trust worthy is the kirkman brand? I've never heard of it.
----
It does sound like a knock-off of Costco's Kirkland, but I'm sure it's not.
I had never heard of them either. I went to the website, and it seems they are into creating supplements for people with sensitivities and allergies. Here is their history: http://kirkmanlabs.com/Pages/51/History/
Of course, how does one really test this shit? I personally don't have the time and money to invest into following up on manufacturers, so I rely on people like Dave Asprey for recommendations. This seems legit though, and I found them because they seemed to be the only folinic acid + B12 combo out there that made sense.
What do you think, having looked at their site?
The phoenixrises crowd test different b12 sublinguals and find these the most effective:
Enzymatic Therapy B12 Infusion 1mg
Country Life Methyl B12 5mg
Jarrows changed theirs somehow and is no longer as effective as it once was
It's also important to maximise contact time by putting it under your top or bottom lip rather than tongue.
I don't like sublinguals. Is there a reason why capsules don't work as well?
B-12 is very, very poorly absorbed in the stomach. It takes a perfect gut to even absorb 5%. You could get shots instead!
My book Fix Your Gut, is offered on Amazon for $9.99.
I also offer coaching: http://fixyourgut.com/health-coaching-information/
Please join or like the Fix your Gut Facebook. Also please add me on twitter @FixYourGutJB.
http://www.fixyourgut.com
Wow… I did not know that. So are pills useless then?
(I found sublinguals make my teeth yellow!)
I take these, they're delicious:
http://ca.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Methyl-B-12-Cherry-Flavor-5000-mcg-60-Lozenges/117#p=1&oos=1&disc=0&lc=en-US&w=b12&rc=2085&sr=null&ic=6
For ~8 months daily I swallowed Source Naturals "megafolinic," then chewed and soon-after-chewing swallowed the Jarrow methylcobalamin 5000mcg. I then tested at 1283 pg/mL B12 (well into the healthy range.) Probably without much other B12 in my diet.
After that test, I learned that I should be letting the B12 dissolve under my tongue. I've since switched to 2-3x a week with letting it dissolve and haven't retested. I don't think it made my teeth yellow, but I've never had pearly whites.
So my two cents: I suspect chewing 5000mcg B12 daily will move the needle regardless of your rate of absorption in your mouth or intestines, even if you swallow the chewed-up tablet. Unless 2-4 eggs a day and a little bit of dairy during those 8 months is what was responsible for my B12 level, which I doubt.
I'd love to try a B12 shot for fun though.
My Biomarkers | How to: Find Full Text of Research when you Have an Abstract | How to: Calculate your Insulin Resistance
The case for International Units of Biohacking (IUBs) | Motivation Models & Hacks | Searching the Forum: Hacks & Best Practices
You still absorbed alot of the B12 sublingually by eating it. Its better then swallowing a pill that wont be digested by your stomach.
My book Fix Your Gut, is offered on Amazon for $9.99.
I also offer coaching: http://fixyourgut.com/health-coaching-information/
Please join or like the Fix your Gut Facebook. Also please add me on twitter @FixYourGutJB.
http://www.fixyourgut.com
so what's the difference between folic acid, folinic acid and folate?
From little research:
Folic acid (also known as folate, vitamin M, vitamin B9, vitamin Bc (or folacin), pteroyl-L-glutamic acid, and pteroyl-L-glutamate) are forms of the water-soluble 9vitamin B and their names have derived from the Latin word folium (which means "leaf").
Leafy vegetables are principal sources of Folic acid.
re: http://answerparty.com/question/answer/what-foods-contain-amino-acids-and-b-vitamins-beta-carotene-and-folic-acids
Folinic acid (also known as citrovorum factor , leucovorin ) is a vitamer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamer) for folic acid, and has the full vitamin activity of this vitamin. It is produced by fermentation or derived from Folic acid.
Maybe someone can let us also know the different advantages of using these?
Is Folinic acid only used to treat certain types of anemias and cancers where as the others are not?
Does folic acid prevent heart disease by lowering homocysteine levels when combined with vitamin B6 and vitamin B12?
i actually looked into some of this a while back, as i had not really heard much/anything about the folinic acid form...here's what i found,
fake it till you make it
folic acid is synthetic and bad for you, supposedly
use the folinic one
so we are wasting our time trying to swalllow b12...
whats the best route to go then??
i use the jarrow b12 plus source naturals folinic
should i chew the b12??
huh??
I recently found out I had several MTHFR/MTRR gene mutations so I need to make sure I take the "end product" which is 5-MTHF, the active form of folate that the body uses. Here's a good article if you have genetic testing done: http://mthfr.net/mthfr-c677t-mutation-basic-protocol/2012/02/24/ I would recommend Thorne and Metabolic Maintenance as reputable pharma companies for that supplement.
For everyone else I really suggest you check up on this before jumping into folate supplements. As I understand, there is no reason not to take 5-MTHF instead of folinic acid, especially if you don't know whether you have a heterozygous or homozygous mutation of the MTHFR gene.
the system around you is not necessarily aligned with your incentives in mind
memento mori
Suntoucher answers much on his thread.
e.g.
B12 + Folinic Acid (B9)
Roles: B12 - necessary for DNA functions, red blood cell and neurotransmitter production, works with folinic acid.
Why: B12 - common deficiency, needs folinic acid to be safe and absorbed/used well.
Dose: 5mg B12 as (Methylcobalamin or Hydroxycobalamin).
Dose: 800mcg B9 folinic acid (5-MTHF) - NOT FOLIC ACID.
Personal note (not D.A.): these seem excessive. A good B-complex seems like a better idea overall - I don't understand the rationale behind these dosages.
re: http://forum.bulletproofexec.com/index.php?/topic/1318-bulletproof-supplements-nootropics-guide/
Does Jigsaw brand B-complex match what you guys are looking for? http://store.liveto110.com/supplements/activated-b-complex-120-tabs/
Pretty good active ingredients, questionable inactive ingredients (fillers,) compare to Thorne Basic B Complex which isn't a whole lot more money per dose.
Neither comes close to Dave's recommended daily intakes of B12 or folinic acid / 5-MTHF, which is why he recommends separate supplementation.
My Biomarkers | How to: Find Full Text of Research when you Have an Abstract | How to: Calculate your Insulin Resistance
The case for International Units of Biohacking (IUBs) | Motivation Models & Hacks | Searching the Forum: Hacks & Best Practices
Hey guys a few things that may be relevant to you:
The Quantified Body Podcast
Gain Confidence in What You Invest Your Time & Money In.
Learn from Data-Driven Experiments using New Tools & Tactics to Improve Health, Performance and Longevity
Is it even necessary to supplement with this stuff if you're eating plenty of red meat and taking spirulina?
This is my first post here so take it for what it's worth. But in my opinion if you are thinking about taking these then you should have a genetic methylation analysis. The cheapest way is to use date from 23andme (costs $100) and then put it into genegenie (costs $10). It will show all your methyl cycle mutations. If you do not have an MTHFR mutation you probably don't need methylfolate. If you have mutations in other genes that increase methylation (COMT, CBR, etc.) then you may not do well with methylated versions of the vitamins. and should take other tyepes of B12 (hydroxycobabamin or adenosylcobalamin). The easiest chart to find out is here : http://www.scribd.com/doc/132017201/Dr-Amy-s-Simplified-Road-Map-to-Health#scribd on page 10. I don't really know much about Dr. Yasko but many people in the MTHFR community seem to find her information helpful.
If you don't have any of these mutations you probably don't need to supplement these at all if you eat a healthy diet. It's worth the cost of analysis to save you from wasting money on useless supplements you don't need in my opinion.
Do not take anything I say here as medical advice.